CDN 2013 mk8 in a T?

[Sunray]

"...Mk. 8 machinegun ammunition..." Nope. It's just the designation of the standard ball ammo used from 1938 and beyond. Smokeless powder load. Boxer or Berdan primed(originally). 175 grain, pointed, boat tailed, bullet. Muzzle velocity of 2440 fps.
DA made ammo was far better than any of the stuff made by IVI. Best .303 Ball I ever fired was made by DA in 1944. Shot the stuff in the early 80's.

[tiriaq]

The IVI Mk. 8z Ranger issue ammunition is not the same as the earlier Mk. 8z ammunition. There is an interesting story why not, but that isn't relevant to the OP's question.

Ammunition intended for use in rifles was Mk. 7 or 7z, loaded with 174gr flat based bullet; the sights were calibrated for it. The boattailed Mk. 8 bullet gave significantly longer range, advantageous for machinegun use.

As far as quality goes, DI ammunition shot better than DA. In addition, DI was Boxer/NC, as opposed to Berdan/C.

[jonh172]

The IVI Mk. 8z Ranger issue ammunition is not the same as the earlier Mk. 8z ammunition. There is an interesting story why not, but that isn't relevant to the OP's question.

Ammunition intended for use in rifles was Mk. 7 or 7z, loaded with 174gr flat based bullet; the sights were calibrated for it. The boattailed Mk. 8 bullet gave significantly longer range, advantageous for machinegun use.

As far as quality goes, DI ammunition shot better than DA. In addition, DI was Boxer/NC, as opposed to Berdan/C.

Now Im interested in the story why not!!

[Roger Payne]

Me too. Please indulge us. I had no idea that there were two different types of Mk8z ammo. I presumed the one & only type was that produced with the BT bullet for use in the Vickers. It would seem, if I have it correctly, that there is also Canadian Mk8z, as per the subject of this thread, of recent manufacture, which is somehow different. Is this so, & how is it different to 'old 8z'?

[Brian Dick]

Mk.7 = 174 grain flat base projectile, cordite loaded
Mk.7z = The same as Mk.7 with nitro powder instead of cordite
Mk.8z = The same as Mk.7z except with a 174 grain boat tail projectile.

Mk.8z was designed for use in the Vickers MMG.

I'd like to read the story too. I'm a skeptic as the differences are subtle and the reasons cut and dried.

[jonh172]

Heres a pulled bullet. Using my 505 beam scale it weighs in at 175gr.
Anyone know a rough BC on these?

[Roger Payne]

Thanks chaps. I'm reasonably clued up on the various marks & differences between cordite & NC loads, bullet profile, & so on (I started collecting 303 ammo when I was nine years old; I'm now 60!). The only thing I'd like to know is if there really is more than one type of Mk8z, or, as I suspect Brian is alluding to, the differences are minor & more likely related to production expediencies in the various different factories around the globe in which this ammo has been produced over the years. Can someone enlighten us?

[tiriaq]

The Canadian Rangers were the last users of No. 4 rifles. Long Branch made rifles were standard issue, often brand new; ammunition issued was late WW2 production.
Then the supplies of both ran out.
W-W commercial 180gr soft point ammunition was procured and issued as a stopgap measure.
Long Branch rifles were sourced on the surplus market. Eventually EAL rifles were issued in quantity, and No. 4s of other manufacturers were acquired. Hence the British No. 4 Mk. 2 rifles in service.
Ball ammunition was desired. Much Ranger issued ammunition is used for hunting purposes; the softpoint is fine for that. Generally Provincial and Territorial game departments disapprove of ball ammunition for hunting. There is also an issue with softpoint being issued for military purposes.
Anyway, IVI was the sole supplier of issue ammunition to the Cdn. Gov't, and was contracted to supply .303 ammunition. Mk. 7/7z .303 ball had not been produced for decades, let alone Mk. 8. Don't know when Canada phased out Vickers guns, and started issuing 1919A4 Browning guns.
The story I was told is that IVI was supplied with the specs for 8z ammunition, this being the last, most recent, Mark of .303 ball designed. The order was made without knowledge of the different applications for Mk. 7 and Mk. 8 cartridges.
Someone then realized that 8z ballistics and No. 4 sight calibrations were not in harmony, and the load was tweaked so that trajectory and sights would agree at 200y.
IVI was also contracted to supply .303 softpoint ammunition. Similar brown boxes, but quite different labelling.
Incidentally, not only is that IVI 8z good ammunition, it was also quite costly. A sole source supplier and relatively limited production will drive up the cost.

7.62x51 rifles are now replacing the No. 4s in Ranger service. I do not know the last date that might be found on the.303 headstamps.

[Roger Payne]

Many thanks for the clarification.

[jonh172]

Yes thank you, very interesting!

So thay being said, my T drum setting at 200y should at least be spot on?