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  1. #1
    Legacy Member nijalninja's Avatar
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    Gunsmithing/Armouring Apprenticeship

    If this kinda thread is not ok feel free to move it or delete it all together.

    So, I've decided I want to be an armourer/gunsmith here in Australiaicon, the recquirements for this being about legislation understanding, facilities to undertake this work, and finally the skills to do it. This last part seems a little hazy for applying for an armourer's licence in that it really just asks that you have references from already qualified armourers/gunsmiths as guarantees for your skills and knowledge.

    Now I muck around with guns as it is, but being able to really be an armourer with knowledge of all the tools and machinery for armouring work does not seem like something I could reasonably do on my own. I know I could take a fitting and turning apprenticeship or become an engineer but both are not 100% direct to being an armourer or gunsmith.

    So that brings me to my question: Are there any armourers or gunsmiths in Australia who would take on an apprentice, or alternatively does anyone here have better advice for what I should do?

    Cheers.
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    Contributing Member Gil Boyd's Avatar
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    At the ripe old age of 20, my strong advice for you in Australiaicon would be to join up, and use the whole sheebang behind the Military wheels to learn your stockin trade first.
    As those on here, some who live or have served in Australia doing exactly what you propose will tell you, is do it properly and earn your trade and respect in that way. In umteen years time you can come out and set up your own business, but it is that very respect you have to earn somewhere to be able to do that IMHO, otherwise it will be a lost leader.
    The best armourers and gunsmiths all stemmed from the Military, because the training is priceless!!
    'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA

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    Legacy Member nijalninja's Avatar
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    I was under the impression that modern armouring would be much more replacing parts than what you need in old milurps: Stocking, metallurgy, and whatnot. Also, despite being quite young I've got health issues that the army would refuse me for in a blink.

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    Contributing Member Gil Boyd's Avatar
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    OK..................in that case my advice is option two.
    Your local technical college may or may not, dependant where you live in Oz run courses, but those are normally only found in the big cities.
    Option two would be to find a gunsmithing weapons maker, or even a repair shop in a local gunshop to learn your trade, from the "resident" expert in house.
    Good luck and let us know how you faired.
    Peter Laidlericon and others who know OZ better than I may come on to offer their vast knowledge too
    'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA

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    Legacy Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
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    Difference between a gunsmith and an armourer. Decide which one. Usually an armourer is from about 13mm and larger cartridges, large automatic guns, bombs, mortars, etc.

    Basic gunsmithing skills out of a book or manuals. Experience doesn't come from books. However, if no nearby training institution provides training, a fitter and turner apprenticeship provides skills and experience of repairing and making small and medium metal parts, welding, etc.

    Stockmaking is another specialised woodworking skill

    Approach your local gun clubs to find out who in the area does their firearms, learn from them while you are finding the right instructor/teacher/college/etc. Be willing to move to where the training is.

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    Legacy Member Sunray's Avatar
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    "...armourer/gunsmith..." That's two very different things. Military weapons techs(armourers) are not gunsmiths. Nor are they trained as such. Replacing parts is exactly what they do. And only on current issue kit. No stock work, no metallurgy, trigger work or any of the stuff a smithy does. Not much metallurgy done by smithies either though.
    "...Basic gunsmithing skills out of a book or manuals...." You cannot learn to do it by just reading books or watching videos. Especially any of 'em on YouTube or by mail order videos.
    Being where you are is probably your biggest obstacle. Your government, like ours in Canadaicon, doesn't want smithies. The chances of finding a smithy who will take on an apprentice with no experience are slim. Highly unlikely there are any entry level jobs either.
    "...reasonably do on my own..." Don't know about Australiaicon, but our Community Colleges run(or did) entry level machining courses. Assumes there is such a thing as a Community College there too. All smithies are machinists. Not all machinists are smithies though. That'd be a start at least.
    "...become an engineer..." Mechanical engineer. Four year university degree with lots of math. And about $35,234.49AUD per annum.
    Spelling and Grammar count!

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    Contributing Member Woodsy's Avatar
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    A position as a military armourer will give you a basic understanding of the operations and procedures involved, even though the modern armourers are essentially 'parts changers'. Fitting and turning is a good background, although I believe you would be better going to a smaller company that still does conventional machining, rather than a big outfit that is heavily into CNC work. Hand skills are difficult to teach unless the person already has a natural ability in that area. Good books are very useful (although a lot of them are coffee table rubbish). One of your best 'tools' is to buy up guns with minor problems, repair them and on-sell them. This gives you experience and some income. The very best 'tool' is your own level of enthusiasm and determination. Finally, don't expect to get rich! You can have a successful and fulfilling career that will give you a good standard of living, but if you want to make money then go get a good job as an engineering tradesman!

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    Legacy Member Bruce_in_Oz's Avatar
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    In my experience, Military 'gun-plumbing' is a whole different thing.

    More like parts-swapping with lots of paperwork.

    It has been a LONG time since armourers hand-fitted anything, let alone worked with wooden furniture, apart from the odd M-79 or similar.

    Also note that Fitter-Armourers are also responsible for non-shooty stuff like small engines (generators etc), assisting the vehicle mechanics when it comes to metalsmithing , welding etc., building barbecues for various messes and so forth.

    Furthermore, last time I looked, "gunsmith' is not a recognized trade in Australiaicon, thus there are no effective apprenticeships. This is "government policy".

    If you want to follow your heart into the biz, save up and get yourself to one of the "Gunsmithing Institutes" in the US and do it properly. If you speak fluent Germanicon, and have a fat wallet, there are some courses / apprenticeships there.

    The "good-old-days" in Australia, when a young bloke could learn a lot by tinkering with random old guns, acquired without paperwork from friends and relative, have long gone.

    The handful of "proper" gunsmiths in Oz are ALL foreign trained. Because they can do pretty much anything, they also have massive work backlogs, despite their hefty fees.

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    Legacy Member nijalninja's Avatar
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    Gil I'm not sure if there are any unis here that run anything to do with gunsmithing but I could always look around, or maybe take up some kind of entry mechanical engineering thing. I've already tried a full engineering degree but failed, but maybe something a little less in your face I could do. Not too many gunshops over here seem to offer repairs, but there are armourers around.

    Daan, yeah I alternate between terms because I kind of want to do both, but in Australiaicon armouring is the only one that is really recognised anymore, and hardly. Stock making would be handy but again not sure if that is a recognised trade. Gun clubs in my area are about the last place I would go to for help.

    My government wants nothing to do with guns Sunray, and yeah you're right with all of that. Perhaps if was a tad older with more experience, but the dream of just being an apprentice to a practiced armourer when you're young... Doesn't seem possible anymore.

    Woodsy, the parts-changing is what I was thinking about too, which is not what I wanted. I already get old beaten up guns and repair them but sometimes its a bit more than I can bit off, or the materials and tools to do it properly are very scarce and tool making requires even more work with knowledge I don't yet have. I don't want to get rich, I just like guns.

    Bruce, I was under the impression that only India still had any kind of institution for gunsmithing. US doesn't sound too bad, but Germanicon is a bit extreme. At least the programs are still out there and not completely forgotten yet.

    Thanks so far everyone for the insight.

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    Legacy Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
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    I know we in SA still have that as a trade, so come over here, learn and go back. We also still have many gunsmith workshops and will probably have them for some time still. They aren't parts changers, real gunsmiths willing to build anything within your price range.

    A tool and die maker specialises in making small metal parts, in fact anything that needs accurate detailed work, that will fit in well with gunsmithing. I think fitter and turner is the larger/coarser version.

    Stock making is specialised because of the differences in people ergonomics, wood types, firearm characteristics, type of shooting, etc. We have many of those in SA too, but I don't know if that is a trade on its own.

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