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Thread: Long Lee Enfield/CLLE WW1 Sniper rifle.

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    Contributing Member harlton's Avatar
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    Long Lee Enfield/CLLE WW1 Sniper rifle.

    Hi there,
    Sorry to be a pest again, but I'm still trying to track down early WW1 1914-1916 type sniper rifles. I recently found a post, in a thread, on the WW1 forum, that mentioned a CLLE or long lee pattern being fixed, I'm sure I also found a picture of this rifle, on " all about Enfields " a N.Z. site, and yet I don't seem to be able to find it again, still looking.
    It concerned a long Lee patt'n, shortened to a 28 inch long Barrel, standard but shortened wood, pattern furniture. Although, I was actually looking for the long rifle type, fitted with full length wooden top handguards, I've seen that they were used, and heard mention of them in different texts. using them with Target sights, and or aldis scopes and different mounts.
    The rifles in Question, were described as sniper rifles, a pattern that is being held in a large UKicon armory collection, with Barrel 28 inches in length, with 5 grooves. I'm fairly sure they described as using both Martin or Gibbs style sights, or again with differing mounts and an aldis sight still offset, not overhead. I have pictures now of snipers being both trained with this style of rifle in the field, they look issued, as the soldiers at the range with this rifle, had his scope around his neck, in a leather. If anyone has anymore knowledge of these rifles, could they please drop me a line and point me in the right direction, as I seem to have lost the scent right now.
    Also, does anyone out there, have a picture and or measurements of a Common's Patterned scope mount. Which was employed on the long lee, to mount a scopes and provide some adjustment as well, although from what I've seen so far, it's only seems to be changes in elevation, and the scopes shown fitted already had this function as standard, I do have very little info on this mount, other than it was used on the long lee's, around the 1900's. While I'm asking, also any pic's or information of how early APX style mounts were fitted, and worked, as I seem to be missing some details on the front part of the mount . Thanks very much for any help supplied, much appreciated.

    Regards Ian
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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

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    Hi Ian,
    I don't know if you've come across these, but there are two Lee Speeds in the National Firearms Collection (ex-Pattern Room Collection) at the Royal Armouries in Leeds, UKicon. These rifles both have identical mount bases although the lateral adjustment dovetailed wedge is missing from the front base of one of them. The mounts are Rigby, but not of the same pattern of Rigby mounts as found on Promo's recently acquired SMLE sniper rifle. I have a Watts scope & also an Aldis with the correct pattern of rings to fit this system, but the spacing of the rings on both of my scopes is slightly different to the spacing of the bases on the two rifles in the NFC. I suspect mine may be off SMLE's. I travelled up to the Armouries about six weeks ago & met the very helpful curator of firearms, Jonathan Ferguson, with whom I inspected the rifles & 'offered up' the scopes onto them. It might be worth your while contacting him directly if you seek more information. I think I may have some photographs of the rifles saved somewhere.........I'll try & find them. I can't recall if the barrels of these had been shortened slightly or not, I'm afraid, but it's quite possible.

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    There you go. Unfortunately I don't have any pix of my scopes. They are the same system & would have fitted the rifles but for the slight difference in spacing of the mounts. Note the non-standard iron sights too.

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    that is an interesting pair of rifles.
    it looks like the light timbered one has neither a tang or a cocking piece safety.
    is it an optical illusion or are the mounts spaced differently on them?

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    No, I think you're right Henry, there is a minor difference in the positioning of the bases between the two rifles. In spite of that neither of my scopes would fit either of the rifles, again due to minor dimension differences between the rings.

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    Hi Roger,
    I'm in your debt again, no I haven't seen those two before, very interesting and they sound like the rifles in question. I found this mention of these early war fixed pattern sniper rifles and I was quite surprised to see it, especially with the shortened barrels, I was aware that they were shortened to 25.2 "s later but not sure when. Then the picture of one in NZicon, showing the heavy muzzle and shortened LE style wood, but before I got a chance to save the text and the picture, Norton came along and cleaned me up. These rifles if shortened, would fit the Bill and being ex-Armories and everything, would there be a full length and shorter rifle? The mounts are a bit different eh! what kind of fixture grasps the rear Knob, I presume the adjustment is made on the front dovetail for windage and this rear Knob is to allow for some global freedom so as not to overstress the scope ? or am I off on that. Thanks again for sharing these, and helping me out again, I did see the differing front sights too, maybe those are the Target style sights mentioned ?
    It's only recently I found these photos of snipers with long lee's in hand, and some details of how long the rifle stayed in service, still being issued. I always thought they could and should be good sniper rifles, nice to finally see some proof. A lot of them here in Canadaicon were used for training. I would like to contact the fellow you mention Rodger, would you recommend dropping him an email or would a letter be best ? Anyhow Thanks again all the best Ian.
    Last edited by harlton; 08-25-2018 at 03:32 AM.

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    Hi Ian,
    Just about to go out for a while, but I'll post back to you in more detail later, & will also try & get some photo's of my scopes so that you can see how the mount system works. It seems to originate with Rigby. I also know of one LLE (it's years since I saw it & I wasn't able to get any photo's, but I believe it now resides with a collector in the USAicon) that was fitted up with a Frenchicon APX scope. It could have been done after the event, but equally may have been a one-off assembly from the time. It was not shortened in any way so far as I recall.

    ATB

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    Attachment 95422Attachment 95423Attachment 95424Hi Ian,
    Here are three pix of the scope rings so you should be able to see how they locate on the bases.

    Re Mr Ferguson: If I were you I would send a generic email to The Royal Armouries via their web site asking for him. It will then get passed on to him & he will probably get back to you directly............I think that's how I started the ball rolling.
    Last edited by Roger Payne; 08-27-2018 at 05:25 AM. Reason: had typed nonsense!

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    Hi Roger,
    Thank you very much for all the photo's on these rifles, really appreciated. Sorry for not responding sooner, but my laptop has decided to only charge intermitantly and crashes at will, I hope you'll excuse my tardiness. Strange, but I wasn't really expecting the simplest answer in my minds eye, thought about it but did a Na! I don't know why, I guess that's the KISS principal at work there, the same arrangement except in the other plane. Those rings and Brackets certainly look heavy enough to do the job, I'm guessing they're a nice snug fit in both cases when you push them home, so they Zero. I can see why they'd all be a little different fit, it must have been a nightmare for the fitters to get all those parts/surfaces to mate together as precisly as required and align correctly, outstanding really! I like the iron sights on those rifles, an interesting mix of parts and Bit's.

    I found my pictures of a CLLE fitted with the Frenchicon APX system/scope mounted to it, funny thing is in the Book, it's described as being fitted to a smle, but when you really look, you can see that in this instance it's actually on a long lee. I have seen them on Smle's, and found the picture of the Oigee22mm 4x Scope, in the same type mounnt too. My understanding of this setup is, the B.E.F. needed sniper rifles desperatly early war, and turned to the French for help in a hurry, and French Gun makers or Armour's obliged them. I guess they supplied them with selected rifles in early 1915 for conversion, not sure how true this is, but the books I've read this in should be reliable.
    I Appreciate all this, and you passing on the Currator's name and details, Thanks very much. I'll get in touch with him, and hopefully discover whatever else I can on these early patt'n snipers, and whether the details were true. Realy did surprise me to see that reported as the 28inch patt'n long Enfield Sniper. If I find it again, I'll let you know. I do know these rifles resides in NZicon now, and they have some others there that are similar but a shorter pattern, so it seems logical to me, that they may be there also.
    I have a picture of my English Granddad marching off to war with the 1st London's, all issued with CLLE's, and recently found another picture of a regiment being issued with CLLE's in 1916, so they were around for a good while at the front, longer than I understood to begin with. Of course I also have them shown in 1915+ at the sniper Training school.
    The first L.E. I ever purchased was a dedicated Target rifle complete with period leather made but plate, and then issued for troop target training. I understood this was there main roll, maybe that was just here, as we had the Ross and so that would change things up. On my Canadianicon side my Great Uncle and Granddad served together in the 21st Batt CEF and my uncle was a piper, he lost his leg to a Germanicon snipers Bullet in 1915, none of them lasted in France to long, interesting when you read how quickly officiers vanished in old accounts.

    Best regards Ian

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    Cheers Ian. When I visited the NFC a couple of months ago, it was left open for me to go back sometime in the Autumn, so I will also be contacting Jonathan at some point to arrange a return trip. Due to a misunderstanding I thought that I was not allowed to take a camera with me so could take no photographs, & I would like to rectify this. (The photo's I posted above were ones I have had saved for a long time, IIRC originally kindly passed on to me by forummer Simon).

    I was aware of that one long rifle fitted with the APX scope (although I think it now resides in North America I remember it going through Weller & Dufty's auction several decades ago), but I've never heard of rifles being set up by the Frenchicon for us early on. However, I wouldn't discount it. We were so desperate for scoped rifles I think we would have accepted almost any help with open arms. It is generally accepted that Germanicon scopes were bought up from within the domestic trade & fitted early on, so national pride wasn't an issue! Having said that, if you can find the source from where the information came I'd be very interested to look at it. Similarly, if you have any photo's to show us of any of these 'variant' sniper's rifles I'm sure we would all learn a lot. I'd very much to see anything you can lay your hands on, if possible. This is partly why I have concentrated more on Great War equipment than the WW2 stuff in recent years; the diversity & uncertainty surrounding it all I find a great draw. I am currently buying a Fuess/PPCo transitional scope that is fitted into H&H mounts, which I believe is an early military issue scope. It bears H&H's commercial engraving, but a four digit & single letter serial number, though no broad arrow, yet unusually the range drum bears embossed range graduations (the range markings are proud of the surface), & they run from 1 to 7. Not at all typical, but I somehow doubt that anyone with even an ounce of sense would attempt to take a deer at 700 yds.! And whilst i cannot guarantee it is military issue I think it is unlikely to be anything else.

    No worries if you're not in a position to post any additional photo's or info (I note your comments about your current IT problems), but great if you can.

    Best, R.
    Last edited by Roger Payne; 09-01-2018 at 06:29 AM.

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