Proof Mark Question

[sogasoga]

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and hoping to tap into some knowledge that I've been unsuccessful in obtaining. Several months back I picked up an 1903A1. It's serial number dates it to 1934, it has a type C stock, and a barrel from May, 1942. My question revolves around a star proof on the top of the barrel. To my knowledge the only star proofs that were used were for National Match barrels but those marks are at the 6 o'clock position on the crown. I've included a photo and appreciate any advice you can give that can explain what this proof is.

Attachment 96462

Information

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[cplstevennorton]

You are asking a question that no one can say for sure.

This is still the one marking that I have never found proof of. All we know is, it does show up on some M1903's that were for sure Marine Corps, and on some rifles that I do not think were Marine.

The biggest question is did the Marines apply that star stamp, or did someone else apply that stamp on a former Marine rifle after it left the MArines?

My absolute best guess is, it is something that was applied in the Korean war time frame or possibly even as late as the early 60's. I have seen this exact stamp on 50's dated M1 Barrels.

This is my personal opinion. Even though this is sometimes referred to as a Philly Star, after the MArine Philadelphia Depot, and some say it's signs of a MArine target rifle. I do not personally think this was a Marine stamp. I did at one time, but my feelings have changed. Especially since I have seen it on rifles that are unlikely Marine. My honest feelings are anymore it was probably some program of the Army very late in the 50's, or even early 60's that hasn't been documented. But I cannot prove that. It's just a gut feeling.

But it does for sure shows up on Marine rifles as well. So the thing is, proving who applied it and when is the key. My personal thinking is now the Marine rifles that show this probably ended up the Army after the MArines were done with them and it was applied.

I would like to see the rest of your rifle if you wouldn't mind. A 5/42 barrel date is really hit and miss as Marine. Usually the later 42 SA barrels are more common as Marine. Does it have the Hatcher hole in the receiver and vise marks on the barrel under the handguard.

If I had to guess this barrel wasn't likely installed by the Marines as those 5/42's are really just a fuzz early, but I have seen a few. Also a 34 dated Marine m1903 receiver is rare. Mostly it had to come in as a NM or through the Navy in 1942 to get into the Marines.

The telling will be if it has a Hatcher hole and vise marks. That would be a compelling sign of being MArine at one time.

[Sunray]

Those stars were not proof marks. That one, like cplstevennorton says, is a Philly Star. Stamped on some Special Target Unertl sniper rifles by the USMC for no apparent reason. It's an undocumented thing that is now assumed to have nothing to do with their Unertl sniper rifles.
About half way down. Bunch of really good pictures.
USMC NM M1903 M1903A1 Unertl Sniper Rifle | USMCWeaponry.com

[sogasoga]

Thank you both very much. I've included some more photos for you to look at.

[CINDERS]

Those marks on the barrel look like they were done by a large pair of Stilsons (Plumbers wrench for gripping pipe to do up & un-do)

[cplstevennorton]

A little back story on this, I don't want to write it all down because it would be pages. lol

I'm going to bullet point this as it might be easier to read.

1) The Marines received NM rifles in certain years. These were used by the Marine rifle teams in competition and NM's.

2) When the barrels of these Marine NM's were shot out, the Marines rebarreled them at the Philly Depot with standard barrels. They did not refinish them bc the receiver had polished rails, and a polished bolt. These rebarreled NM rifles became Marine Special Target rifles and were not used for the teams anymore but were used for Marine Divisional matches.

3) The only way to tell the Marine Special Target was a former NM were the rails were polished and so were the bolts. And if it had it's numbered stock. But for most the stocks were changed.

4) In 1942 the Marines conducted an Inventory and they had 1047 NM and special target rifles. All NM polished bolts were ordered to be blued, and then put in storage labeled as Sniper equipment.

5) In Jan 43, the Marines started to mount scopes on the NM and Special Target rifles. But not all 1047 were converted, and it is really likely it may have only been 250 that were converted to Unertl Snipers, which were how many shipped to the Pacific.

6) The remaining ones left that were never converted sat in storage at Philly until 1945. They detail 800 sat in storage at the depot.

7) After this mention they are never mentioned again. So no one knows for sure what happened to the remaining NM and Special Target rifles that were not converted to snipers.

8) The Marine Unertl sniper rifle was declared obsolete in 1951. In 1953 the Marines authorize the release of all Marine M1903's except for 500 for historical purposes. All M1903's, even Unertl snipers, start a mass exodus out of hte Marines in anyway possible.

9) The Philly Depot closes in 1954 and all work is transferred to Albany.

10) M1 rifles show up with this star in the same location with dates in the 50's. Also M1911's show up with this star with Target sights that seem to be made in the later 50's.

11) There has not been ONE Unertl sniper found with this star that is 100% original. Most look like they at one time had been converted back to standard service rifle, with the blocks and handguard removed. Then someone found it and restored it back to sniper configuration.

12) Rifles that were once Marine NM's, but were rebuilt into Special Targets, do show up with this star. But certainly not all of them. They seem to be part of the ones not converted to Unertl Snipers. But I have seen some rifles with it that do not show any evidence of Marine useage and are not known MArine serial ranges.

13. Whatever meaning this star is, it is rare. Very few Unertl snipers show it, and even the majority of the Special target rifles don't have it.

14. There is no evidence that this star had anything to do with the actual Special Target program, or the Unertl Sniper program. This seems to be some program that occurred after the Unertl Sniper program started in Jan 1943.

15. Even though the MArines didn't refinish the special Targets bc they had polished rails pre Unertl Sniper program. All that I have seen with that star have been refinished and the polished rails after parked over.

[cplstevennorton]

Even though your vise marks aren't typical of a special target, I do think that barrel was changed by the Marines. The Hatcher hole could be drilled by the MArines or it could be drilled by SA. IT's a toss up.

It just depends on when the Marines recieved that receiver. There are two options.

1) The Marines received NM rifles in 1935, 36, and 37. They also received them in 1940, but by serial this rifle is pretty much disqualified. There is no evidence the NM rifles received in 35 or 36 came with factory hatchers. But the 1937 would have had one drilled by SA.

2) The MArines received off the Navy at least 35,000 and possibly 50,000 M1903's in 1942. They were in bad shape and many needed rebuilt. That is why you see the MArines order a lot of Barrels in 1942. And why there was a huge rebuild program in 1942. As many of these rifles probably were Navy.


There is no way to prove what exactly your rifle is. But by serial alone and it having the star, hatcher, and vise marks, I'm guessing it is likely it was at one time a Marine NM team rifle, rebuilt into a special target, and probably rebuilt a 2nd time with this time it being reparkerized and the addition of that C stock. That stock is a 1940 SA C stock, which the Marines never ordered any of those, they hated the C stock and were still trying to get GG stocks in 1940.

Your 1.466 serial could have honestly been in any of the 35, 36, or 37 NM shipments to the MArines. Without the original barrel present to note the year, it's impossible to say.

Marine Unertl Sniper 1464269 was part of the 150 shipped in 1937 to the Marines. But looking in the SRS, that 1.466 range could have shipped in any year as some in that serial range were sold as NM in 35,36, and 37.

Now it is possible it could have been a Navy rifle that came in 1942 as well. But we just don't know those serial ranges of the Navy enough to know if that is likely or not.

Even though there isn't any way to prove it, the Marine NM, rebuilt into a Special Target, and then rebuilt again into it's current configuration is most likely.

---------- Post added at 09:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 AM ----------

I know you have your serial blacked out, but if you either post or pm the rest I can compare it to the NM in the SRS. That 1.466 is in a good NM range. Which is more evidence it was a prior NM at one time.

Also you might want to post more pics of it. Any marks on the stock, pics of the bolt, rear sight, and buttplate. That will help and might be more evidence there that you don't recognize.

The Marines did not buy loose C stocks in 1940, but they did get C stocks on the 1940 NM rifles. So some of these 1940 NM C stocks are found on special targets. A way to tell there is a serial number of the NM rifle stamped on the underside of the stock forward of the rear sling swivel.

[sogasoga]

Thank you again for your time and input. I try to do as much of my own research as possible because I think that's a great way to learn, but there's no substitute for years of education and expertise.

Here are some more photos and I can take more if need be.

[browningautorifle]

Nice enough stock, I'd make an attempt to key a piece into the spot from the receiver sight, would be worth it to me.

[rcathey]

I'd make an attempt to key a piece into the spot from the receiver sight, would be worth it to me.

Especially with those great crisp drawing numbers.

To the OP, I gotta say thanks for this thread! I’ve learned a lot of really obscure stuff from this one. Great stuff!