+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Theories on this Charger Loader?

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size
  1. #1
    Senior Member smle addict's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Last On
    Today @ 02:03 AM
    Location
    CA, USA
    Posts
    193
    Local Date
    11-15-2018
    Local Time
    12:28 AM

    Theories on this Charger Loader?

    Hello all,

    I saw this rifle come up on auction last week, and really didn't pay much attention to it. I have a couple of charger loaders, and wasn't really in the market for another one. This one began life as an 1893 LSA produced Magazine Lee Metford Mk II. In 1909, it was converted to a Charger Loading Lee Metford Mk II, then upgraded to a Charger Loading Lee Enfield Mk 1*. But-something about it kept me looking..

    I started looking at the pictures of the bore the seller posted, and a light bulb finally clicked; It's still wearing a metford barrel. I put in a bid and won. Rifle arrived a few hours ago. The rifle is in pretty good shape. It does have a seven-groove metford barrel. Not sure if its original, but the 1909 dated barrel matches the receiver (serial numbers). It even has the front sight protector correctly marked with an "M" denoting metford rifling. It is also marked with "EY" on the stock, forend, and receiver/barrel knox.

    So, any theories why this rifle is incorrectly marked as a CLLE Mk I*?

    Open to any and all conjecture/theories/WAGs!
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	CLLM 1.jpg‎
Views:	300
Size:	64.3 KB
ID:	96676   Click image for larger version

Name:	CLLM 2.jpg‎
Views:	297
Size:	62.1 KB
ID:	96677   Click image for larger version

Name:	CLLM 3.jpg‎
Views:	295
Size:	45.7 KB
ID:	96678   Click image for larger version

Name:	CLLM 4.jpg‎
Views:	289
Size:	43.4 KB
ID:	96679   Click image for larger version

Name:	CLLM 5.jpg‎
Views:	292
Size:	61.0 KB
ID:	96680   Click image for larger version

Name:	CLLM 6.jpg‎
Views:	151
Size:	90.1 KB
ID:	96681   Click image for larger version

Name:	CLLM 7.jpg‎
Views:	144
Size:	141.9 KB
ID:	96682  

    Click image for larger version

Name:	CLLM 8.jpg‎
Views:	120
Size:	63.0 KB
ID:	96683  

  2. The Following 2 Members Say Thank You to smle addict For This Useful Post:


  3. # ADS
    Friends and Sponsors
    Join Date
    October 2006
    Location
    Milsurps.Com
    Posts
    All Threads
    No Drill-Tap scope mounts for Mosin Nagant, Mauser K98K, Yugo M48, Swedish M96 and M38, Swiss K31, K11, 1911 and more! Bringing mil-surplus rifles to modern standard without damaging historical values! We specialise in military utensils and artefacts such as helmets, daggers, medals and badges, etc.  The on-line store is intended for personal browsing and searching of collecting objects. All items are provided historical value only and can be used for home collection or other purposes except of fascism, Nazism or other extremism manifestation or its propaganda. LIMITED TIME OFFER FROM THE AMERICAN GUNSMITHING INSTITUTE: Get Immediate Online Access To AGI's NEW Armorer's Course for Glock Pistols, Covering Every Generation of Glocks, Including the Latest Model 42/43 and Double Stack Pistols for ONLY $7.00! Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Chuck in Denver ... Buy-Sell-Trade .. Guns, Cars Motorcycles We pride ourselves on being the new lowest price listing service, and the simplest to use. If you need to buy or sell collectible firearms or any firearm in your legal possession, then this is the place for you. If you’re a big collector clearing house, or other seller that could benefit from a Premium seller account, then we can also support you here at Armory.Auctions LLC. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  4. #2
    Really Senior Member nijalninja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Last On
    Today @ 12:02 AM
    Location
    Australia
    Age
    20
    Posts
    319
    Local Date
    11-15-2018
    Local Time
    06:28 PM
    Guess I'll open the floor with the easiest and likely most incorrect possibility; someone goofed.

  5. Avoid Ads - Become a Contributing Member - Click HERE
  6. #3
    Advisory Panel Lance's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 06:52 AM
    Location
    New England, USA
    Posts
    432
    Local Date
    11-15-2018
    Local Time
    03:28 AM
    No goof, it is correct. Please refer to "The Lee Enfield" p.85. In summary, in 1909 the CLLM was ordered to be discontinued and existing stock modified to CLLE Mk I* status. Some were rebarreled, some like yours were not. The biggest modification to CLLE I* status was the bolt with the safety catch was installed, originally the CLLM had the non-safety catch type like the MLM II. Your rifle is very uncommon, great pick-up! I have yet to come across a non-upgraded military CLLM Mk II (I have a civilian pattern).

    My weird CL is a pattern CLLE Mk I (no windage rear sight installed thus a groove was put in the charger bridge and the battle sight heightened). Some were permitted to be fitted with metford barrels to use up existing leftover stores or if the barrel was still serviceable. So like yours, it is marked as and CLLE but has a metford barrel. My example is a VSM 1911 conversion with a 1911 barrel.
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	P1010008a.jpg‎
Views:	91
Size:	114.3 KB
ID:	96700   Click image for larger version

Name:	SANY0848.JPG‎
Views:	84
Size:	1.54 MB
ID:	96701   Click image for larger version

Name:	SANY0855.JPG‎
Views:	79
Size:	1.43 MB
ID:	96702   Click image for larger version

Name:	SANY0850.JPG‎
Views:	73
Size:	1.49 MB
ID:	96703   Click image for larger version

Name:	SANY0851.JPG‎
Views:	66
Size:	1.56 MB
ID:	96704   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2489.JPG‎
Views:	68
Size:	983.6 KB
ID:	96705   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2491.JPG‎
Views:	80
Size:	320.2 KB
ID:	96706  

    Last edited by Lance; 10-21-2018 at 08:19 AM.

  7. The Following 5 Members Say Thank You to Lance For This Useful Post:


  8. #4
    Senior Member smle addict's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Last On
    Today @ 02:03 AM
    Location
    CA, USA
    Posts
    193
    Local Date
    11-15-2018
    Local Time
    12:28 AM
    Thread Starter
    Thanks for the info. I had to re-read that section in the book. It finally made sense! I appreciate the nice comments as to its rarity. Like I said, had the seller not posted a picture of the bore, I would have passed on it, chalking it up as just another CLLE.

  9. #5
    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Last On
    10-30-2018 @ 02:49 AM
    Location
    Gold Mountain
    Posts
    2,613
    Local Date
    11-15-2018
    Local Time
    01:28 AM
    I'm sorry, but to me that looks like very worn Enfield rifling rather than Metford.

    Not a shadow of a doubt in my mind on that.
    "Deer-stalking would be a very fine sport if only the deer had guns." W. S. Gilbert.

  10. #6
    Really Senior Member 5thBatt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 12:58 AM
    Location
    Zombie Town, now with a H
    Posts
    720
    Local Date
    11-15-2018
    Local Time
    09:28 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    I'm sorry, but to me that looks like very worn Enfield rifling rather than Metford.

    Not a shadow of a doubt in my mind on that.
    Metford rifling does indeed look like worn Enfield rifling but with 7 grooves not 5, this barrel has 7 grooves so Metford rifling.

  11. #7
    Senior Member smle addict's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Last On
    Today @ 02:03 AM
    Location
    CA, USA
    Posts
    193
    Local Date
    11-15-2018
    Local Time
    12:28 AM
    Thread Starter
    Yes, the rifling does appear worn. But it is seven groove which indicates metford rifling. I took it to the range last Friday and was surprised with how well it shoots. I fired this 10 shot string (1st round sighting) and put the next nine rounds into a respectable 2-1/2 inch group at 100 yards with handloads off of sandbags. Not too bad for a 125 year old rifle. I did notice I had so seat the bullet way out to get respectable groups. There is a fair amount of throat erosion.
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	range pic 3.jpg‎
Views:	56
Size:	315.6 KB
ID:	96847   Click image for larger version

Name:	range pic 4.jpg‎
Views:	54
Size:	137.3 KB
ID:	96848  

  12. Thank You to smle addict For This Useful Post:


  13. #8
    Really Senior Member nijalninja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Last On
    Today @ 12:02 AM
    Location
    Australia
    Age
    20
    Posts
    319
    Local Date
    11-15-2018
    Local Time
    06:28 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by smle addict View Post
    I did notice I had so seat the bullet way out to get respectable groups.
    Do the rounds still fit in the mag that far out? Also I would be over the moon to see an old girl like that pull that performance. I bet you are glad you jumped at it.

  14. #9
    Senior Member smle addict's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Last On
    Today @ 02:03 AM
    Location
    CA, USA
    Posts
    193
    Local Date
    11-15-2018
    Local Time
    12:28 AM
    Thread Starter
    The rounds barely fit... I have them seated to 3.080 overall. The bullets a just a hair form the mag, but they still feed. This rifle shoots .312 diameters well. Anything in .311, the groups opened up substantially.



    Thanks for the comments! I was a little hesitant to buy it (I have a hundred "honey do's" to tackle), but it made me happy finding a rare rifle that still shoots.

+ Reply to Thread

Similar Threads

  1. Bren Gun Mag. Loader ?
    By tr63 in forum Other LMG/HMG and SMG Forum
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 06-09-2017, 04:58 PM
  2. Unknown mag loader?
    By Flying10uk in forum Other LMG/HMG and SMG Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 05-21-2016, 03:49 AM
  3. Is this a ZB-39 mag loader??
    By TactAdv in forum The Bren LMG (Light Machine Gun)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-01-2014, 12:42 PM
  4. FAL Magazine Loader
    By USMC6094 in forum FNFAL Rifles
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-07-2012, 04:53 AM
  5. Magazine loader
    By Sid in forum The Watering Hole OT (Off Topic) Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-02-2009, 08:42 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts