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  1. #11
    Contributing Member rcathey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usabaker View Post
    US WWII and Pre-WWll lots with case corrosion visible. Not sure of the collector value of any of it
    Unless it's in nice, clean boxes or a specialty round (colored tips: armor piercing, tracer, frangible, etc) then no. No collector value to speak of. Pulling the bullets would give you the best, ahem, bang for your buck.

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  4. #12
    Really Senior Member Bruce_in_Oz's Avatar
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    I've salvaged a lot of "dubious" ammo over the years, Boxer and Berdan.

    Bullets? Use a serious bullet puller like the RCBS "collet" type. Those plastic hammer jobs are great for "short" runs but get "old-FAST" when you have a 4 gallon bucket ti clear. The press-mounted collet ones allso retain the powder in the case so it can be inspected and then salvaged or used as fertilizer on the garden as desired.

    The one situation in which the plastic "kinetic" bullet pullers shine is when you need to dismantle ammo loaded with cast / non-jacketed / steeply conical bullets as commonly found in pistol ammo. The collet fingers of the "press" type will not "grab" the soft bullet very firmly and if you wind it up tight, you mangle the bullets. Horses for courses, and all that jazz.

    Primers? Two things:

    Firstly: "Popping" primers is noisy and NOT to be done indoors; LEAD residue and all that. Furthermore a LOT of older (pre 1950 "military") primers are CORROSIVE. REALLY old stuff may also be Mercuric primed, both Boxer and Berdan, but this is also often indicated by the COPPER primer cups that are not attacked by the primer mix like brass ones.

    Secondly: NEVER "pop" primers in rimless cases. IF you do, you will probably notice that the fired primer has backed out of the case a little. What this means is that you have just seen the power of primers in action.The case has been driven forwads into the chamber and the shoulder pushed back. This is NOT a good thing; instant excessive headspace will exist with reloads on this brass. Results may include misfires, ruptured primer cups, etc. RIMMED cases like .303 Brit and 30-40 Kragicon headspace on their rims and don't suffer from this problem, similarly "belted" magnums. (or should that be "Magna"?).

    As for ""neutering" primers, "oil' is slow, diesel fuel works, but it takes time.

    I've never bothered. Just deprime them as per normal. LEE make a special depriming (decapping) die which is essentially a standard-looking 7/8" x 14 die body with a big parallel hole up the middle; one size fits all, apparently. A primer may occasionally go "POP" but almost never if you operate the press slowly. Wear ear protection, "just in case". On salvaged "military" brass, primers are usually crimped / staked in and thus a bit harder to remove, but just don't be in a hurry. And you will then have to remove the crimp / staking to insert a new primer. The BEST tool I have ever found for this is the Dillon "Super Swage 600" bench-mounted job. It actually works! REALLY well made and comes with swage tools for both large and small rifle / pistol primer pockets. You only need to "de-crmp" primer pockets ONCE in their lifetime, so it is a device that will probably outlast several owners.

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  7. #13
    Contributing Member usabaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz View Post
    Bullets? Use a serious bullet puller like the RCBS "collet" type. ....used as fertilizer on the garden as desired. Primers? Two things:

    Firstly: "Popping" primers is noisy and NOT to be done indoors; LEAD residue and all that. Furthermore a LOT of older (pre 1950 "military") primers are CORROSIVE. REALLY old stuff may also be Mercuric primed, both Boxer and Berdan, but this is also often indicated by the COPPER primer cups that are not attacked by the primer mix like brass ones.

    Secondly: NEVER "pop" primers in rimless cases. ... As for ""neutering" primers, "oil' is slow, diesel fuel works, but it takes time.
    Bruce, Thanks for the extensive right-up. I always use RCBS Collets to remove the bullets from the cases, the plastic kinetic puller it's WAY too much work and I only use it for one or two that I need to disassemble. The only brass I might salvage that has corrosive primers might be the US 30 cal. stuff and then only if the cases show no degradation. But regardless if its foreign or domestic I soak them in a bucket of water and ammonia for a night or till I get around to them. Then I run them through one of my rifles. It's rare when I get a discharge, but that may be as Jim said: "Most pre WW2 primers have died a natural death long ago."

    I've never had an issue with shoulder set back on any or the rimless that I've popped primers on so what you wrote was a surprise to me, guess I've been lucky.

    I only buy the old military salvage ammo so that I can reload to -near- era correct ammo using the bullet. This is the first time I've ever gotten a boatload of modern'ish reloaded ammo and never in 300 Win Mag.

    Thanks again for the help and write up.

    ---------- Post added at 09:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rcathey View Post
    nless it's in nice, clean boxes or a specialty round (colored tips: armor piercing, tracer, frangible, etc) then no.
    None of the above for this lot.
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  8. #14
    Advisory Panel Parashooter's Avatar
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    Shoulder setback from primer force in rimless bottleneck cases is well-documented, though most often in conjunction with low-power reduced loads which never reach enough pressure to force the case head back against the bolt face and expand the shoulder forward again. The reason it occurs is that the priming compound is a very strong explosive, partially confined by the primer pocket, causing the primer cup to act as a piston driving itself back and the the case forward, deeper into the chamber.

    For more detail see shoulder set-back

    The following illustrates the sequence of events on firing - but shows a rimmed cartridge, so we have to imagine what happens with rimless when the primer detonates -


  9. #15
    Contributing Member usabaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parashooter View Post
    Shoulder setback from primer force in rimless bottleneck cases is well-documented,
    I only see reference to cases having a bullet in the mix. I do not see any reference on that forum that shows evidence that a primer in a case with no barrel restrictions can cause shoulder setback. OR I'm just missing it. Can you point me to the data to support primer force set-back with no restriction in the case mouth or chamber?
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    Advisory Panel Parashooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usabaker View Post
    I only see reference to cases having a bullet in the mix. I do not see any reference on that forum that shows evidence that a primer in a case with no barrel restrictions can cause shoulder setback. OR I'm just missing it. Can you point me to the data to support primer force set-back with no restriction in the case mouth or chamber?
    Author of post describes test with inert primers vs. live primers - no mention of bullet or powder for the test (which certainly wouldn't add much with inert primers) -
    There have been basically the two theories regarding the cause; the firing pin blow theory and the primer theory. I ran the same tests with a fire formed case and inert primers; headspace was not changed. I then used the same fire formed case with live primers. In as little as two firings there was a measurable decrease in headspace. After five live primers the fired primer was noticeably backed out after firing. NOTE: this increase in headspace was with case taking LR primers.
    If you really doubt that the effect occurs, this kind of test is something you can easily reproduce at home (just the live primer part needed). Cost is only a little labor and a few primers. Results vary depending on case/chamber surface condition, presence of lubricant, brass hardness, etc.

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  12. #17
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    So...what's the difference when you full length resize after firing or popping primers. I would anyway, even with new brass. The shoulder ends up where it should be.
    Regards, Jim

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    Contributing Member usabaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parashooter View Post
    If you really doubt that the effect occurs, this kind of test is something you can easily reproduce at home (just the live primer part needed). Cost is only a little labor and a few primers. Results vary depending on case/chamber surface condition, presence of lubricant, brass hardness, etc.
    I didn't say I doubt it, I was just looking for the data, actual controlled engineering tests. I found the text in the forum you sighted. He does not describe the tests or test result data such as cartridge type, primer type, caliber, bore size, etc... in paragraph two. In fact, the author writes that the test were squib loads; which is supported by his statements, in paragraph three and four where he writes about squibs and the bullets he uses. The problem with what Mr. Ginson wrote is the lack of test cases and results that describe his test in detail or as primer only test, which leaves what he wrote up to the interpretation of the reader and not set facts.

    On another note, if we -assume- tests were primers only with no cartridge obstruction or barrel obstruction and we take what Mr. Ginson wrote, "In as little as two firings there was a measurable decrease in headspace " This would mean that discharging "popping" primers once would not cause any problems since it took at least two firings to get measurable change in headspace, for which he offers no data. What is measurable? .010? .001? .0001? saying just 'measurable' is subjective.

    Just do not see any data that supports shoulder setback on a primed cartridge with no cartridge obstruction or barrel obstruction when fired. But I do find this fascinating and will more than likely run test to see what results I get. I spent 23 years of my life and a test engineer so this will be interesting.
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    Advisory Panel Parashooter's Avatar
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    So...what's the difference when you full length resize after firing or popping primers. I would anyway, even with new brass. The shoulder ends up where it should be.
    Full-length sizing moves the shoulder forward only if the case body (behind the shoulder) has been expanded to a diameter greater than the die interior - which doesn't happen with no powder (or low-pressure loads). If the body diameter is equal to or less than the die diameter, the shoulder is not displaced forward. Think about it.

    On another note, if we -assume- tests were primers only with no cartridge obstruction or barrel obstruction and we take what Mr. Ginson wrote, "In as little as two firings there was a measurable decrease in headspace " This would mean that discharging "popping" primers once would not cause any problems since it took at least two firings to get measurable change in headspace, for which he offers no data. What is measurable? .010? .001? .0001? saying just 'measurable' is subjective.
    The effect of one primer detonation on shoulder position is normally very small - but that doesn't mean it is totally nonexistent. Usually, real headspace problems occur only after the cumulative effect of firing repeated "squib" loads in succession. I don't personally feel that "popping" one primer in an empty case will cause any serious problems. Rather, I am simply agreeing that some shoulder movement is a real thing and the result of the primer's explosive force. (I prefer to just remove live primers in a normal decapping die, going slowly and wearing safety glasses. All this business of trying to deactivate primers or "popping" them off is unnecessary - unless they're crimped in.)
    Last edited by Parashooter; 06-14-2019 at 02:25 AM.

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    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parashooter View Post
    Think about it.
    NONE of it sounds like any kind of problem. If you size and it fits and you can charge and shoot, then it's history. You size again and carry on. If you're suggesting by all this that it shortens case life, who cares? It goes into the salvage bin and we get another out of stock.

    All this is what cause people to cringe when you talk about firing primers so they aren't chucked into salvage live...

    Regards, Jim

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