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  1. #21
    Really Senior Member Sunray's Avatar
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    "...L7 Ordnance..." Chieftain did and the Leopard 1 does. Challenger 2's do not. They have a rifled 120. Either way, Point Blank Range on an L7 is 1,000 yards.
    The M1A2 Abrams is mostly about its armour. That being the Chobham armour developed by the Brits. It also uses a 120mm smooth bore gun. It's downside is its weight(71.2 tons) and size(Hull length: 26.02 ft. Width is 12 feet.) It needs to be able to use existing European bridges.
    The real issue with tanks of any flavour is their cost. Each one of those Abrams runs $6.21 million USD each and are estimated in 2016 dollars at $8.92 million US each. That being Hillier's reasoning even though it wasn't mentioned. The CF doesn't have the budget, the political will or the means of transporting tanks anywhere anyway.
    "...the LEOPARD on this list..." Usually more about who created the list than anything else.
    Spelling and Grammar count!

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  4. #22
    Contributing Member Flying10uk's Avatar
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    How many tanks on the ground in relation to having one Apache gunship in the air, worth on the battlefield? Or to put it another way, how many tanks would you trade for one Apache gunship?

    There must be a figure/ratio, but has anyone ever figured it out?

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  6. #23
    Advisory Panel stencollector's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunray View Post
    Our Leopards are Leopard 1's bought in the 1970's and we have no way of moving them anywhere anyway. (At one time our NATO tasking was to reinforce Norwayicon. We couldn't get there with any heavy kit. Trudeau the Elder used it as his excuse to pull us out of Europe.)
    When our guys went to Afghanistan in 2007, we had to rent some Leopard A6M's because our's were out if date and we have no way of transporting pretty much anything bigger than a case of beer.
    Rumour has it The CF bought some used Leopard 2's from the Dutch. Lt.-Gen. Hillier, the former Chief of the Defence Staff, thought he could replace a tank with an LAV Dinky Toy. Idiot.
    A little convoluted there Sunray. Yes, tanks were about to leave the CF inventory back around 2006. At that time, Crown Assets was selling good running Leo hulls (turret and gun removed) for between $11,500 and $16,000. They were referred to by the then CDS as relics of the cold war. But Afghanistan really started to turn sour, and a quick decision was made to send in the tanks. At that time, there was a large excersize scheduled for here in Shilo, and pretty much all the units participating were already here, including the armoured. The ex was cancelled just two days before it was to begin....my guess was that the armour was going to Afghanistan and sure enough, within a month the LDSH was there. Our C1s were past their prime, so tanks were leased while another fleet of newer ones were run through Germanyicon to be upgraded and things like air conditioning added. I made it over as contractor in time for the changeover, and was there when we shipped the rentals, along with the dutch tank transporters back to Europe in whatever condition they ended up in. Those C2s now remain as Canadaicon's main battle tank. Any C1s have been relegated to monument, target, or just plain scrapped.

    Previous to the Afghanistan use, the only other operational use I saw of the leos were as a show of force when we were peacekeeping in Kosovo.I believe a whopping 2 of them were there as part of our contingent. I was in Bosnia around 2000 and suddenly heard the unmistakeable rumble of a Leo as it passed our position heading back to the North. Aside from that, of course the Leos were part of the cold war in Germany.

    The Leos are here to stay for the time being. Their opportunity to serve may be limited to use against the insurgent type militaries like the Taliban or the Kosovo mafia, but in that role they still have a place taking the heat off the infantry and providing good fire power against fortified defenses.

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  8. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrclark303 View Post
    Consider that the only time the UKicon has deployed armour in strength since WW2 is Gulf Wars 1 and 2.
    John, They even had Centurions in Gulf 1, I remember seeing one getting some restoration on Salavage Squad, they managed to track one of the crew down and was on the programme, He climbed in and found the letter he had written home........ they weren't expecting that.

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  10. #25
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    I've always been fascinated with the way Germans utilized anti-tank tactics in WW2. I would like to know how many tanks before the invention of the panzerfaust how many tanks were destroyed by artillery, bundle charges, anti-tank mines etc. I think a lot of the modern anti-tank weapons can trace their lineage back to the panzerfaust to a degree. Anti-tanks grenades were utilised in the 50s-60s by many NATO countries. I wouldn't have like to have been that soldier charging a t34 78 years ago with a bundle charge and magnetic anti tank mine... We've come a long way for a reason... To make things easier. There's always going to be something to counteract the newest anti-tank technology. I don't see tanks going out of favor anytime soon but I'm not an expert.

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  12. #26
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    Sadly, Tanks scare the **** out of me.
    Remember in Germanyicon on exercise once when a group of lads had bivoaced against an embankment when a tank came over the top crashing down on the kit.
    Luckily noone was asleep otherwise it would have been catastrophic!

    'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA

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