Lee Enfield stocks wrapped with copper wire ?

[IanS]

Have a look at the bottom of post #66, in the following thread,

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=48373&page=7

it tells of my dad's experience firing a grenade launcher.

[Peter Laidler]

Reading the fitting instructions for the cup discharger (it's never been officially designated as a grenade launcher by the way. An important fact in UK law and identification by the way) reveals why the rifles and launchers must remain identifiable as a unit.

If my memory serves me correctly, the internally threaded 'nozzle' should be backed up using the stock bolt bit until it is clear. Then the cup should be fitted to the rifle and closed down in the usual way. Then the nozzle, which is machined to form a slight concave to match that of the rifle muzzle, should be tightened/screwed down hard against the muzzle. This way, while the cup discharger is attached to the nose cap and ultimately the fore-end, the actual shock of discharge/recoil is directly down and through the barrel and body into the butt. And NOT the fore-end which will soon split!

Not a lot of people know that The reason that they don't know it is because the nozzle part of the cup discharger is missing OR is jambed (or is it jammed?) solid by the fine thread being absolutely gummed up with carbon. There is no known thread, it is just a thread over a diameter so far as I recall when I made several many years ago. When the cups were returned to Ordnance the instructions stated that the nozzle was to be removed, wrapped in oilcloth and retained inside the cup. But being Ordnance blanket stackers they probably lost thousands of them...........

There....., another totally useless bit of Enfield history knowledge

[Alan de Enfield]

There....., another totally useless bit of Enfield history knowledge

Do you remember this from the old Jouster forum in 2007 ?



SMLE Cup dischargers

Posted By: Peter Laidler

Date: Fri 28 Dec 2007 6:03 am

There’s been a bit of discussion, off forum, between a few forum-ers about grenade launching and the part it plays in the virtual destruction of rifles. Don’t forget that there are basically two sorts of ‘standardised’ grenade launchers. The spigot launchers for the Energa type grenades and the cup dischargers for the old hand grenades.

But first, CUP DISCHARGERS

There are a few myths about these things and at Warminster and Shrivenham, some of the old research papers exist from the Woolwich and Enfield trials. But first things first. I am going to mention this in everyday non-technical language for obvious reasons and it stands to reason that a technical interpretation might be flawed to a hopefully small extent but ….. The claws on the old cup discharger simply hold it in place and don’t take any of the recoiling load. This might be contrary to your beliefs, but it’s true. It simply holds the cup onto the nose cap.
To cater for a forthcoming problem that I’ll mention later, Armourers would instruct the bombardiers (the grenade launching specialists) how to fit the cup correctly and properly. Now, look into the cup discharger and you’ll see, buried deep into the bowels of the conical end, a large screwdriver slot astride a hole that mates up with the bore. This screwdriver slot is to unscrew the NOZZLE and if the drawings are correct, it’s a ½” BSP thread. These nozzles were a readily replacement part as they quickly wore out should you ever need to make another. The screwdriver slot was made so as to be compatible with the ‘BIT, screwdrivers, stock bolt’. And effectively prevented the normal squaddie interfering with it. Yours will inevitably be jammed solid with years of carbon fouling if you’re UN-lucky or just old grease if you’re lucky. So loosen it off and get it out. If you have to make a new one, make a few and sell them on, cheap, to fellow forum-ers

This is what the Armourers instructions to the bombardiers was. Screw the cup to the nose cap in the usual way. NOT with a xxxxing great strap wrench or huge pipe spanner …, please! THEN get the Armourer with his stockbolt screwdriver to screw the nozzle down until it is a tight fit ONTO the muzzle of the rifle. That way, it’s effectively pulling the cup away from the fore-end, almost acting as a lock nut and it’s a gas check too. It’s simple isn’t it, but not understood after having been lost in the mists of time!

This is because the recoil takes place on the rear of the cup. If the nozzle isn’t hard down onto the muzzle then the nose cap will recoil violently onto the fore-end, fore-end recoils violently down and into the rear of the body. In a short space of time the fore-end will be loose and, …. well, in short, knackered. HOWEVER, if the cup recoils against the BARREL, well, that’s what barrels do anyway!
But there’s more. Armourers notes, say that for grenade launching rifles, the butt MUST fit right up into and abut against the inside face of tapered butt socket ….. ‘while remaining a tight fit inside the socket……’. But not only that. There MUST be a gap of about 2mm (go on then, the width of a hacksaw blade) between the rear edge of the socket and the wood of the butt to the depth of the step. This is important for ALL rifles because this small measure prevents the butt socket slicing a sliver of wood away from the edge. You’ve got another patch to do if it does! There, does that explain why you have a grease filled slot between the front of the butt and the rear of the butt socket. It shows that a) its correctly fitted and b) the Armourer will have done his job. But you’d expect that from a REME Armourer anyway.
Next, we’ll speak about the spigot launchers

Grenade projectors; Cont.......

Posted By: Peter Laidler

Date: Sun 6 Jan 2008 2:03 pm

This thread was running a month or so, relating to cup dischargers and I said that I’d continue it. The truth is that what I know about grenade launchers/projectors could be written on the back of a stamp with a biro and there’d still be room for the Lords Prayer! But, I’ve been asking those who might know and sifting through what records we do have and it’s NOT good. The first thing that comes to mind is that from conversations with those who taught grenade firing and the old Armourers who (quite literally …..) picked up the pieces is that the words ‘grenade firing’ and ‘from rifles’ are not words that sit happily together. Insofar as the L1A1 rifle is concerned, then the only grenade projector in regular use was the L1A1 or the A2 type No94 ENERGA grenade launchers. But all was not well. The recoil forces acting directly upon the flash eliminator, through it, and onto the muzzle would crush (albeit minimally) the flash eliminator positioning washer and within a few rounds, as sure as night follows day, the flash eliminator would be loose, held on only by the locking washer and retaining pin. Another problem was that the rear of the body would recoil violently against the recoil plate, also known to us Armourers as the trigger mechanism housing insert. It didn’t take long either!

Within a couple of days of grenade firing (Warcop was a superb range, with dozens of Churchill tanks, weasels, buffalo's and DUKW amphibians as hard and soft targets) the rifles were in need of dire repair. Loose flash eliminators were easy to rectify but loose trigger mechanism housing recoil plates were deemed to be a base repair, needing a new trigger mechanism housing! I had a loose/separated one as an example until a few years ago. The main problem was that the clamping rivets would elongate and that’s it …, finish!
The problem was that practice/inert Energa rounds were cheap, readily available from Ordnance and could be used on the sports field, against a practice tank, made from old crates or even a real one. The ‘warhead’ was a plastic chalk filled bowl affair with different coloured chalk for different teams. All banging away all day, chalk everywhere, but about 6 rifles slowly being churned up! But I have to confess, I did let my son fire a few dozen grenades. Not for fun you understand….., purely to show the others that there was nothing to worry about if you did it properly. And by then, I wasn’t repairing the rifles either!

You could use blank instead of the big and beefy ballastite of course but the range was poor and it really served no useful purpose. What recruits need is a xxxxing big bang and a puff of smoke plus lots of cheers, wow’s and oooooh’s with a few £££'s as prize money afterwards
The only projector that we have any record of for the No4 rifle is the PROJECTOR, Grenade, No4 rifle, Mk4. This is easily identified by the 1.5” wide sight leaf, ranged from 25 to 100 yards. Once again, it fires the old No94 Energa anti-tank grenade. The clamping arrangement ensures that the recoil of the projector is transferred onto the muzzle end of the barrel and NOT the bayonet lugs. The bayonet lugs simply act as an anti-rotation stop. Damage to the No4 rifle was almost insignificant compared to the L1A1 ….., BUT continued firing did drastically affect the accuracy of the rifle due to the continued flexing of the body taking its toll on the fit of the fore-end. It could be something else of course …., it could be many things, but that is the reason recorded in our papers.

Next we’ll look at the early spigot launchers for the No4 and 5 rifles if you’re interested

[Peter Laidler]

That's amazing........... I knew I'd written something up some time ago and it wasn't here but blowed if I could find it. Anyway, there it is, duplicated plus a bit extra.

Reminds me of the old Armourers joke. Q; What is 7" long, 3" round and fuxxs rifles? A: Rifle grenade firing

So it's a 12" BSP thread is it. I'm not sure about that now....... There more useless info about Enfields to read when you've got a bit of insomnia

[Alan de Enfield]

That's amazing........... I knew I'd written something up some time ago and it wasn't here but blowed if I could find it. Anyway, there it is, duplicated plus a bit extra.

Reminds me of the old Armourers joke. Q; What is 7" long, 3" round and fuxxs rifles? A: Rifle grenade firing

So it's a 12" BSP thread is it. I'm not sure about that now....... There more useless info about Enfields to read when you've got a bit of insomnia

I think the 'story' is amazingly consistent for a 12 year gap.

You must have had a bit of 'insomnia' to be posting at 6:00am on 28th December