another early LE carbine

[smle addict]

Hello All,

I have been chasing after this carbine for about five years. It belonged to a dealer I know who likes to collect, but rarely part with items in his personal collection. After some long negotiating (5 years!!!), it came home with me last night. It is what I believe to be a No. 3 trade pattern Lee Speed Commercial Carbine.
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It does not have the flattened and forward swept bolt as in the advert. I initially thought it had a swapped in bolt from a long lee. When I pulled it apart this morning, I was surprised and happy to see it is an all matching carbine, serial #193.
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Barrel, receiver, bolt, cocking piece, and rear sight all match. Odd that is has a long lee type bolt where as the catalog advert shows it with a swept bolt. Any theories from the forum?
Now the bad: it has a horribly mangled front sight. It might win first prize for worlds worst sight modification. The barrel has also been bobbed 2 inches. It has a "modified" cocking piece, where the sear engagement takes place. Does Bubba have no boundaries? It still holds, and the safety does engage. Not sure what the purpose of this mod was, other than to stiffen the trigger pull! And there is some wood damage.
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The rifling is worn, but strong. Also included in the deal was a martini-metford barrel in 303. The barrel is completely shot out, but it does have an intact front sight. I am going to have my local gunsmith correct the crown on the chop job, and install the front donor sight.

Information

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[NORTHOF60]

Congratulations on you acquisition. If only the warm glow lasted as long as the chase ....

[tatou]

I believe englishman_ca once told me commercial carbines (and rifles) could be special ordered with a multitude of options or configurations… so that would probably explain the round bolt knob.
Nice find in any case.
But now that the chase is over what will be the new one ;-)

[Jc5]

Odd that is has a long lee type bolt where as the catalog advert shows it with a swept bolt. Any theories from the forum?

Consider: What year is the catalogue you are looking at? What year was the carbine manufactured? Maybe they are not the same year. I think that's your answer. I have seen some threads go awry by people relying on a page from a 1912 catalogue to decipher features on a rifle made in 1895...or 1925!

1) Can you please post a pic of the top-rear flat part of the action (where the bolt slides in)? You just need to raise the bolt handle to see this. This is where a proof assembly number would be on a government rifle.

2) Can you please post a photo of the Right-hand side of the action, showing the bolt head and the right-hand side of the knox form?

3) Is any number stamped on the trigger guard? Unlikely but always worth checking...

BTW, CONGRATS on getting this rare carbine! Especially after 5 years of negotiation...

[smle addict]

jc5, thanks for the reply. I pulled that page from an advert in an LE book. Don't know where else to look for answers in regards the commercial rifles. Any suggestions for a reference source? Thanks for the help!

Here are the pics your requested. There is no number on the trigger guard, only something I cant decipher on the inside top of the guard.

This is one DRY rifle. It keeps soaking up the BLO. I've put five coats on it so far, and it just keeps drinking it up. During the disassembly/cleaning, I found a large amount of a very fine sand in all the nooks and crannies.

[Jc5]

Don't know where else to look for answers in regards the commercial rifles. Any suggestions for a reference source?

Thanks for posting the additional pics!

The reference source you're asking for will be the book I am writing on the Lee-Speed rifles. What specific answers are you seeking? I'll do my best to help you.

I believe that we corresponded last year--or started to. I am always looking for photographs to use in my book---of anything that is rare or unusual, or something I don't have. Please send me a PM and we can discuss maybe using a couple photos of your carbine. It is great that you have so many matching numbers on it, and photographed them.

These trade pattern carbines come up for sale every so often, but they are not too common, and are an interesting item. You might think of them as the "artillery carbine" that never was (i.e., a carbine with bayonet lug)--Doug Munro has written a bit on this (see Skennerton's Arms & Militaria Collector magazine, No. 30), and he hypothesizes (correctly, I believe) that the trade pattern carbines were produced in anticipation of an artillery carbine being adopted for service (though it never was). It is likely that the trade pattern carbines served as the inspiration for the later New Zealand pattern and RIC-patten carbines, both of which could be fitted with bayonets (unlike a cavalry carbine). However, there are only so many directions such a carbine could go---you take a cav carb and put a Rigby nose cap/bayonet lug on it---so the NZ and RICs probably would have ended up that way even without the trade pattern example. But the BSA trade pattern came first. And there is plenty of evidence that military officers privately purchased them (in those days officers were expected to purchase their own weapons and uniforms), and took them to Africa for the Boer War.

I am devoting an entire chapter to these carbines and all their variations in the book.

[RobD]

These Lee Speed carbines turn up in photos of the Anglo Boer War. Attached is a picture of Cmdt-Gen. Jan Smuts [rear, 4th from left] and his men in May 1902; two of the men in front appear to have Lee Speed carbines [my reasoning: these have Rigby nose caps, but are too short to be long Lees, and have no barrel band and hence are not cut down long Lees]. Maybe my logic is wrong?
[[For the ABW enthusiasts, note the young Boer in the bottom left corner - he is Deneys Reitz, who wrote "Commando". His .303 rifle is a long Lee, other versions of this photo show its barrel band clearly.]]
Rob

[RobD]

One more

[smle addict]

jc5-thanks for the info, PM on the way

[Sunray]

"...Does Bubba have no boundaries?..." Absolutely not. Kid came into the shop and bought one of the 1903A4's we had years ago. Saw the kid with it at the only public range near TO at the time(there are none now). He had cut the stock with a hand saw and taken off the hand guards, then had the nerve to try and return it when it didn't shoot well. I think he chromed it later too.
That looks like a Lee-Metford more than a Lee-Enfield. Very much a guess, but there were no Carbines after the Lee-Enfield was adopted. Officers didn't carry rifles either.
Don't think a Martini-Metford barrel will fit.