Fake parts

[lemaymiami]

A bit of practical info about taking things to court.... from a retired cop who spent more than a bit of time as a courtroom observer -usually while waiting to provide a few moments of testimony if (and that's an understatement..) the matter ever came to trial....

Every day across the nation young prosecutors with a stack of cases they want to proceed with are literally strong armed by judges who point out that if they bring every case to trial - nothing will ever get done... The next item is to point out that there are probably a few cases that really are important that the young prosecutor is holding (and actually have solid evidence) so that's when everything remaining works its way through the system as a negotiation... At least that's what I observed down here in paradise, south Florida, over a 22 year span. I doubt that civil actions fare much better (except that every lawyer on every side - earns a good living while both sides get poorer...).

I actually did see "justice" once or twice in all those years.. It was purely incidental to everything else that was going on... This may sound a bit cynical - but it's what I learned to expect over the years.

In the matter of fake parts for carbines - proving the item is a fake won't be easy since there isn't a recognized standard to compare to (just a bunch of very well educated collectors who in the end will lack hard proof that the item involved is a fake....). If and when you establish that a particular part (or parts) aren't what they're claimed to be - how do you go about proving in court that the seller knowingly sold something that wasn't kosher? And of course if backed into a corner, maybe, just maybe our bad actor will, in the end offer to "make it right" but without any criminal action against him (or her) and the civil action might still proceed - if you can afford it...

I'm long retired out of police work (this will be my 25th year in "retirement" although I never retired at all - just went back to fishing for a living...) and glad of it... Justice does occur and more often than not - but not exactly in the legal system that I saw... Of course there's more than one kind of "justice"...

[deldriver]

Normally your right but with old what his face out west he has even make fakes of those. Heck he even has counterfeited barrels from what I have been informed. Nothing is beyond a buck with him.

Are you saying brand new reproduction bolts or bolts with altered markings? I can imagine the latter but certainly not the former of those two. If they are the of the brand new reproduction type, I'd love to see some pictures, for my curiosity of course.

[DaveHH]

The judicial system in this country is a dog and pony show run by lawyers for lawyers. The judges are lawyers, the prosecutors are lawyers the defense folks are lawyers. The recording clerks are probably going to school to become a lawyer. The only thing between you and the lawyers is a set of law books that they have and you don't. They make their own hours and days off and dismiss things that they don't want to bother with, or settle because they are too poor or lazy to take it further.

These are dangerous times. When I was a kid TV programs were brought to you by Chevrolet, Wonder bread, Motorola TVs etc. Now the ads are from law firms who are picking the last scraps of meat off the bones of America. Everything is now a felony because it makes people non-gun owners, it requires a lawyer to keep you out of jail and it makes another guest of the state on our dime. It kicks in the probation industry which is another sad story. It's almost impossible but I'd avoid any involvement with these people if you can. You are already paying for it anyway. The worst thing about lawyers? You have to hire one to protect yourself from another one.

[P51Mustang]

As stated knowledge is key!There are enough forums and books that anyone should study carefully before a purchase.

[Bruce McAskill]

Are you saying brand new reproduction bolts or bolts with altered markings? I can imagine the latter but certainly not the former of those two. If they are the of the brand new reproduction type, I'd love to see some pictures, for my curiosity of course

Both new and old bolts are known. If new just look for the oil/water hole in the bottom of the bolt. Those are all post war made. He stamps just about anything you can think of on them and sells them as original. If old then a careful inspection is needed to reveal any of the stampings on the bolt being removed. There are no pictures available but check web sites that sell what there is few of but plenty to see on line in piles.

[deldriver]

Both new and old bolts are known. If new just look for the oil/water hole in the bottom of the bolt. Those are all post war made. He stamps just about anything you can think of on them and sells them as original. If old then a careful inspection is needed to reveal any of the stampings on the bolt being removed. There are no pictures available but check web sites that sell what there is few of but plenty to see on line in piles.

So, he's changing the markings, I figured that if anything. Honestly, I haven't seen a tampered with bolt marking in years now, but the ones I remember way back were more on the rarer side. I mean why change the marking on a common bolt that's readily available. Anything with him is possible though I'll admit.

[tenOC]

M1 Carbine - Relics at GunBroker.com : 852931254
Pic #23 has a bolt marking of interest. Probably a good source for close shots of the bolts in question, at least from time to time.

[Sunray]

There is a very high probability that the courts would refuse to hear cases involving firearms of any kind. And some jurisdictions think the M1 Carbine is an evil assault rifle.
Anyway, you'd have to prove intent to defraud. That being that the seller knew his parts are not "original". And that the parts are not "original". The latter being virtually impossible as most of the assorted small shops, literally hundreds of 'em, that made Carbine parts did not mark them in any way. Which also means that forum members cannot unequivocally determine that a fake part is or is not fake.
There is no such thing as an "all original" Carbine as none of the original manufacturers made all the parts. Some made receivers and nothing else. And a lot of the original production records are long gone. So if anybody tells you they have an "all original" M1 Carbine, they're lying.
Have a look here.
The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbines

[Bruce McAskill]

My oh my a Sam-T-Bob special. Why the letters on the swivel look sooo fresh. And on the left side of the receiver top are the numbers 09942 is what it looks like. Almost like a Bavarian but I doubt it. But one can rest assured something on it may be from Georgie's private stash of fresh new old parts.

[tenOC]

No, I'm ok with using the term all original if it's still as assembled with it's determined original parts. All Underwood or all INSERT ANY MAKER is not technically accurate, but sorta seems like saying clip for magazine. It's a semantic argument and if you tell people (pretty much all general people) at a show that there's no such thing as an all original they're going to run with it and (1) suddenly their cobbled turd is just as good as an actual original. (2) no Carbine is sacred from destruction either since any parts could be on any Carbine. So dummies who acquire one will quote a guy who told them no Carbine was ever all original so I can swap this stock and no harm done since they're all put togethers. That hammer wold be great in my cobbled turd. And now there are 2 cobbled turds instead of one original and one turd. Obviously that's not what actual knowing, informed Carbine collectors understand the phrase to mean, but they don't have the ability to discern what is being said.

Not that many parts weren't marked. Early sears, some safeties, Win front sights and bands. Bands aren't easy to swap so they almost don't count. I understand what is being said inside our group, but anyone can click the internet and find a reason to sacrifice something they shouldn't. In the past year or so I've barely preserved an early, rare original Carbine that a book said shouldn't exist. The book was being cited as a reason to bust it up and correct a turd.