NZ marked ROFM 1941 No4T

[Roy]

For sale in NZ there is a NZ marked 1941 ROFM No4T. From 15 years of watching this forum I think it's genuine, (no T or TR marks are normal for early production?) Not that i'm in a position to buy it now, the outbreak of the plague has ruined any employment opportunities for the forseeable future.

Supposedly it's from a batch of 200 or so which came to NZ after WW2

The renumbering of the scope number on the butt which is S51 marked, is a little odd with the round imprints of more modern number stamps.

What do you guys think?

Photobucket

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[Roger Payne]

From the limited views I could see on photobucket, it looks genuine enough to me. It has been rescoped, with the Mk1 it now has. I don't know if that was done by a civvy owner or whether that was common practice in NZ, (refitting another Mk1 scope rather than fitting a Mk2 or 3 scope). The bolt body numbers don't look original to me & I suspect the bolt is a replacement.

Interesting for me is the fact that the bracket bears the much less common RBG2 (Rose Brothers Gainsborough, inspector number 2, presumably) inspectors mark within a circle, rather than just JG or KD as is found on the vast majority. I don't know but suspect it is probably only found on early brackets. The rifle numbering stamped into the bracket looks a little amateurish to me, though I haven't seen a lot of 4T's worked on by Kiwi armourers. However, I would have expected a neater job than that. I seriously wonder, but am by no means sure, if the rescoping is down to a civvy owner......

[Surpmil]

First off, Photobucket is a nothing but @&$%^# pain: these threads are meaningless in the future without photos.

Clearly the front pad screws have been replaced at some point, but the rifle itself looks right to me. I am going to respectfully disagree on the bolt numbers, but it would help to have more and better photos, showing the bolt (and the rest of the rifle) more fully.

I think the rifle probably had a Mk.I cocking piece originally as mine which was a few hundred higher in serial number did, and it was clearly original. IIRC others in this SN range we have seen here did also. The finish on that now fitted differs from the rest of the action too.

Those modern number stamps give themselves away by their circular imprints in wood. The original Kodak Ltd. Mk.I scope number is clear enough though.

Can't comment on the bracket re-number as Peter has told us in the past that barring out rather than erasure was the SOP when numbers were changed.

Someone out there may be looking for that Watson scope No.1519.

There is one good(?) sign though: the number barred out on the bracket is 18700 which is probably also a 1941 Maltby number. Is it possible that a number of Matlby No4(T) rifles were shipped to NZ at about the same time? It does make sense, since what is produced in close proximity usually goes into and is taken out of stores in close proximity.

The flathead screws used may be what was available in NZ?

When did these rifles leave NZ service?

[mrclark303]

As an NZ service firearms collector and a Maltby nut, I would dearly love that rifle!

[Roger Payne]

She's right enough but she's been through the mill somewhat, possibly all down to the military, possibly not, but the basic rifle, scope & bracket are all genuine.

Thanks Rob, I forgot to mention the flat head front pad screws. Mind I've seen some on rifles from military stores that had been replaced like that. Suspect what was available was used so long as it did the job!

[Roy]

Attachment 106350

Thank you for the replies. Here is the only other photo but it does not really show more info

I do not know when the rifles left NZ service but it is rumoured they went to the police and who knows what they did to them.

Oddly the oversized 1's on the bracket seem to be over stamped over smaller 1's underneath.

I have seen one other No4T in NZ that had modern renumbering stamps on the butt and that rifle looked messed up and ameturishly renumbered on the metal parts.

[tonyd]

I have personally viewed this particular rifle and then owner even let me strip it down to check the numbers on the inside of the topwoods and barrel. Hes had this rifle for 10 years and didnt even know how to take the scope off let alone strip it! It is 100% genuine, However as pointed out its had some parts changed during its service life like the bolt, lower forewwod, front pad and screws. Now the screws I suspect are a NZ rebuild thing. My NZ Maltby T has the exact same screws along with two other savage Ts that I have seen. I sent roger pane some photos of my nz maltby a few months ago showing the same screws. So we either got a batch of rifles missing the scopes and rebuilt them here or just changed what need to be changed during a repair. The NZ armourers were a little agricultural back in the day. I don't think I've seen one matching rifle and scope/bracket combo here apart from barbers minter unissued T

[Roy]

What do you reckon about the modern number stamps? You've seen more No4 T's in NZ most, it is entirely possible it is a NZ armourer thing.

[tonyd]

Yea I wasnt too sure about the scope number in the stock with the light circle mark, one of the savage Ts had the same font and circle marks too. At a guess each military base at the time like Burnahm or Waiouru may of had different number punch sets?? Purely speculation on my part tho. Or a civvy could of banged them in!

[Surpmil]

The forend looks correct to me and one doubts there were spare Mk.I forends supplied in beech to N.Z., and if there were, small chance one got put on this rifle which coincidentally would have had one originally.