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  1. #1
    Legacy Member harry mac's Avatar
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    Rigby Scopes

    Can anyone tell me which came first; Rigby Commercial scopes, or the Periscopic Prism scope, as fitted to the SMLE sniper rifles?
    Was it the case that Rigby was marketing a Germanicon scope under their own name, which PPCo copied, or did Rigby sell PPCo manufactured scopes post WW1, marked as a Rigby product?
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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

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    It is a minefield to be too dogmatic about WW1 stuff, especially the early items, but my impression is that the Rigby marked scopes are usually essentially the Fuess Helios 3 type, or at least, nearer to the original Helios 3 than the production PPCo scopes. ('Transitional' models are sometimes encountered). I have therefore assumed that these Rigby marked scopes are early. I suspect some of them were fitted to the small number of SMLE's that were fielded with one of Rigby's own mount systems fiitted. The only surviving rifle of this type in the world that I know of is owned by a regular on this forum. I suspect Rigby fielded two (or maybe more?) mount systems though, as I have a couple of military scopes engraved to them which appear to be unadulterated, one being an Aldis & the other an ER Watts, & their mounts are identical but totally different to those on the rifle previously mentioned. I agree though, it can be very difficult deciding on these as so many were reutilised after the war & the companies involved were often H&H, Rigby, Purdey & so on, who were also involved in the WW1 contracts.
    Last edited by Roger Payne; 04-22-2020 at 07:00 AM.

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    Feuss as a smaller maker was perhaps open to the idea of selling unbranded scopes to Rigby or whoever. With far fewer scopes available in the UK and a market relatively new to them and therefore not well informed, I wouldn't be surprised if Rigby just took whatever seemed adequate and was cheapest.

    There is no mention of PPCo. in the 1921 "Dictionary of Britishicon Scientific Instruments", the publication of the British Optical Instrument Manufacturer's Association, nor of any company at 23 Prince of Wales Crescent, Kentish Town.

    And if it's any indication, in the list of products of their members in that Directory, there is not a single mention of any kind of telescopic sight except a single mention of naval gun sights!
    Last edited by Surpmil; 04-22-2020 at 06:10 PM.
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    Yes, we hear nothing of PPCo after WW1, or at least, I haven't. They were taken over by the government before the end of the war, so they were presumably the government's to do with what they wished, once hostilities were over, & perhaps they did!

    Significantly, when more Model 1918 scopes were required for the Irish Republic's contract for No3 (T)'s, they were ostensibly made by BSA, (at least they bear the BSA logo).
    Last edited by Roger Payne; 04-22-2020 at 06:52 PM.

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    Owning a Rigby engraved scope in PPCo style but without PPCo designation on the tube which bears the address of Rigby dating prior to the PPCo military contract, I assume Rigby used Germanicon made scopes prior to switching over to PPCo scopes.

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    Yes, I assume so too, certainly the Fuess Helios 3, which also eventually morphed into the PPCo scope, with a little tweaking here & there.

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    Legacy Member harry mac's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by Promo View Post
    Owning a Rigby engraved scope in PPCo style but without PPCo designation on the tube which bears the address of Rigby dating prior to the PPCo military contract, I assume Rigby used Germanicon made scopes prior to switching over to PPCo scopes.
    Promo, did the Rigby scope come as standard with the two mounting "pegs" on the side of the tube, or were they only on scopes for the SMLE?

    ---------- Post added at 03:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Payneicon View Post
    Yes, I assume so too, certainly the Fuess Helios 3, which also eventually morphed into the PPCo scope, with a little tweaking here & there.
    Roger, what would be the approximate UKicon value for a Rigby marked scoe of this pattern in very good condition?

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    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    A few Rigby photos from an old drive. If anyone "owns" any of these and objects, PM me and will remove.
    Last edited by Surpmil; 04-23-2020 at 08:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by harry mac View Post
    Promo, did the Rigby scope come as standard with the two mounting "pegs" on the side of the tube, or were they only on scopes for the SMLE?
    All of mine have them.

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    Possible 'Early' WW1 era scopes....

    Attachment 107366Attachment 107367Attachment 107368Attachment 107369Attachment 107370Attachment 107371Attachment 107372Attachment 107373Attachment 107374Attachment 107375

    The above are some scopes that I believe may be early WW1 era issue scopes. What they show is that the true situation of production, mounting & issue was probably more complex than we are aware of today. This situation has not been helped by the lack of surviving original documentation.
    Amongst them is an Aldis of early production (lacking its range drum at present, but that is in hand!) with the 'other pattern' of Rigby mounts.
    A 'Fuess/PPCo Transitional' scope (no manufacturere's mark or name) wearing Purdey mounts, generally associated with the mounting of Aldis scopes.
    A Rigby marked Fuess pattern (no maker's id). No mount locating 'studs' on this particular example.
    A Fuess/PPCo Transitional scope marked up to H&H & bearing the remains of what I suspect are very early issue H&H rings.
    A Fuess style scope marked up to George Gibbs. The mounts have been filed off leaving just rings around the tube, but the spacing would be consistent with Rigby mounts as on the Aldis. The rings are too far apart for Purdey or H&H two piece mounts. The scope is marginally longer than a 'standard' Fuess/PPCo.

    I also have a 'Fuess Helios 3' marked scope that came to me wearing a GR property tag somewhere around.

    Harry mac, I've adressed your question on values by pm.

    Amazing selection of scopes in post 8 Surpmil!
    Last edited by Roger Payne; 04-24-2020 at 11:14 AM.

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