WW1 'Periscope Prism company' sniper scope???

[lmg15]

Yes, I think the pathway may be getting clearer. There would be a lot of good info in the records identified when they can be accessed.

Surpmil, my reference to PPCo paying royalties (or not) to the Germans was for the copying of the whole scope design. Whether PPCo version was close enough to infringe the German design it was based on could be a moot point.

Regarding the scopes used in the Enfield/PPC overbore mounts being part of a trials batch, Roger's is a No.4 about 800 away from the other known pair. It would be interesting to know the scope details for the example with the PPCO 1919 markings ex-NZ. Was this a No.3 or No.4 scope?
Looking at my spreadsheet, I think there is a general pattern, but with the usual random bits thrown in to prevent a crisp solution. For example, the two known No.3 scopes on the overbore mounts are 70501 and 70533. You would think these would be two dots close together in the 'join the dots picture', but alas, I also have scope 70503 with no indication of what mounts it had, and 70507 on Purdey mounts. I think there was a batch of these overbore scopes, but it is not well defined by the scope serial numbers unfortunately. I get the feeling that the scopes used in the overbore mounts had a degree of randomness in their selection.

My own example of these mounts fitted on scope 70533 are completely unmarked, but the rear rifle mounting block is stamped with '12' in large font on the front face, FWIW. The roll-over latch lever design and its physical form is identical to that of the PPCo fitted P14(T)s. Although this item is otherwise un-marked, I am confident it came out of the PPCo factory. The scope mounts and rifle mounting blocks of scope 70501 are completely unmarked.

The theory that Bartle was the original designer of the dovetail mounts was looking so promising to me....oh well....All part if the fun...

Regarding making or upgrading a publication, I think TBS would be a good one if Ian can be convinced to do it. While there have been other books on the subject published later (that curiously do not reference TBS at all, but should have to avoid some mistakes), I think TBS has the technical credibility and primary source info to build on.

Regarding the compilation of the ultimate scope list, I am more than happy to assist. Will await your PM.

ATB,

D.

[Roger Payne]

Evening/Morning D!
Yes, I'll try to find the photo showing the NZ example - of the three pictures I have of these mounts that was the one I couldn't find, though I'm sure I have it somewhere. I'll keep looking.....it'll turn up.

[Surpmil]

Here is a photo found online that is probably not an original fitting IMHO.

But is it possible to fit overhead mounts made originally for the SMLE into bases made for the P14?

And further to that, notice that the scope and rings appear from what little we can see, to have been together for some time, AND the objective is not the windage adjustable type. Interesting implications....


And secondly a truly rare set up as fitted to a rifle for display purposes.

[Roger Payne]

Surpmil - Referring to the second illustration - The SMLE/Aldis front claw mount (as per Model 1918 scope fittings on the No3 (T)) does 'work' with the P'14 base, although as your photo of the UK collector's deactivated rifle clearly shows, the front base for the SMLE is different in contour to the P'14 base. The sides project down lower & there is only one locating screw in the top, but also one each side, as opposed to the two 3BA screws through the top of the P'14 front base. I was not aware of this (I have since been in contact with the person whose rifle you show in the second illustration) when I wrote the article for the HBSA a few years ago, & was unaware of the existence of a full set of SMLE over bore claw mounts (mine lacked the front base & the couple of other sets of which I was aware of lacked at least this component). However, a number of these sets have been reproduced & assembled onto rifles & shot quite successfully, which reinforces my belief that the critical dimensions are the same, even if the contour of the two front bases is rather different.

Really quite a find. Apparently he turned it up quite by chance!

[Surpmil]

Yes, the gentleman who found and owns it is one of the earliest collectors and researchers in this field, if not the earliest.

Now what about the implications of the No2 Aldis in non-adjustable rings?

But, looking at that photo again: the tube and rings look refinished, while someone has polished off all the black enamel except on the drum saddle...dubious!

[Roger Payne]

And the photo is a little too small to say a lot, but the front base looks rather shiny to me...............you know, as in 'shiny & new' (ish)!

[blurrededge]

I find I could hit the thanks icon for every post here chaps, best thread in ages. Thanks to all the contributors, fascinating stuff.

[lmg15]

Just to clariyy on Roger's comments:

I am lucky enough to have some detailed photos of the Aldis overbore mounts above and these are identical to mine, which were the two scope mounts and the rear rifle mount.
With better set of photos, this is No.3 scope serial No.70501, which in 32 numbers off mine, and closer examination shows it is fitted with the windage prism. Neither scope or mounts are engraved with PPCo fitting or rifle serial number info-exactly the same as mine.

The scope and all mounts were found together as one lot, and have been fitted to a rifle in recent times.

Regarding interchangeability with the P14 mounts, the SMLE overbore front claws fit the P14(T) front block, and the SMLE overbore rear scope leg fits and locks into the P14(T) rear block. HOWEVER, the SMLE overbore scope rear leg is about half an inch longer, so both of the SMLE overbore scope mounts cannot be attached to a P14(T) at the same time.

As for the finish, on scope and mounts, all blue has gone and what is left is the silver grey patina. It was not stored well prior to the present ownership and has probably been cleaned up. I can say that looking at my scope, it was blued but has suffered similar surface corrosion, albeit not cleaned back to bare metal.

Some photos attached...the last one shows the SMLE overbore rear rifle mounting block ( with remains of solder from previous fitting) attached to the rear leg of a Patt1918 scope, demonstrating the interchangeability aspect. Note its is marked with number 12, so not sure what significance this was,as it is not on the other known original overbore rifle blocks. Anyhoo, might indicate that there are at least another 11 out there... ATB, D.

Attachment 108642Attachment 108643Attachment 108644Attachment 108642Attachment 108643Attachment 108644

[Roger Payne]

Thanks D, Yes, the rear leg of the SMLE ring is quite long due to the relatively low position of the rear base on the SMLE rifle body, in comparison to the P'14. I have often wondered as, with the sole exception of this scope & mount that surpmil has shown, all sets of these mounts are incomplete, missing the front mount base (if not more). With such small numbers that we are aware of that have survived it could just be coincidence, but it might not be. The exact shape of the bases (SMLE vs P'14) is quite different as can be seen, but if the dimensions that count are the same, could someone have thought that they might just be suitable as spares? Again, just thinking out loud.....not a shred of evidence to support the notion, but the lack of front bases does seem quite a coincidence. Anybody any views on it?

[Surpmil]

I find I could hit the thanks icon for every post here chaps, best thread in ages. Thanks to all the contributors, fascinating stuff.

Very kind of you; good to know we're not suffering alone here!

Img15, great photos there. That erector cell adjustment slot on the underside may be a sign of some post-war fiddling. I once had an Aldis No4 with post-war H&H marks where a second slot had been cut, presumably some mixing and matching of optical components made that necessary. Worthy of a refurb that one.

To anyone reading this who has an Aldis scope or serial numbered parts of one, we've got somewhere around 125 logged so far and would welcome more details or photos. Post here or PM Roger, Img15 or myself. TIA.