WW1 'Periscope Prism company' sniper scope???

[Roger Payne]

Many thanks for the pointer Madzi. I have purchased a copy this evening & will check back to see if I have your article.

[Nigel]

This has been an excellent thread. I have seen an article that looked in to the use of telescopic sights by Australian snipers towards the end of the Gallipoli campaign. If this was the case they would have certainly been graduated for MkVI ammunition. Looks like I'm going to have to go up into my loft to find the article - I've looked everywhere else. I did find this quote in the Gallipoli Diary, Vol II. I couldn't cut and paste so took a photo of my screen instead. It refers specifically to the Scottish Horse " they were very proud of themselves and of the effect their rifles with telescopic sights had produced when put into the hands of gillies and deer stalkers."

[Roger Payne]

Most interesting Nige. Wish you all success in the loft!

I've found my photocopies of the SAC minutes from August/September 1917, which I'm afraid don't help on the issue of scopes graduated for Mk6 ammunition, but which state that at that time 350 Aldis scopes had had prisms fitted for lateral adjustment, & that the total requirement to be so converted was 750. At that time it seems as though it was envisaged fitting these scopes all to P'14's although the Hensoldt light telescope is mentioned in the text as well. I've also found some minutes from 1921 on the disposal of the SMLE snipers that were then to hand. Thirdly, I have managed to retrieve some data on the contracts, most but possibly not all of which is in TBS, on contracts to the various trade members such as H&H, Purdey, & so on. It is quite illuminating in that some contracts were awarded for 'the fitting of telescopic sights', & some for 'the SUPPLY & fitting of telescopic sights' (my capitals), which perhaps has a bearing on our earlier discussion. Unfortunately my printer/scanner refuses to recognize my laptop to send the files to, but I will try to get round it & as soon as I can I will post them here in case they are of interest.

[Madzi]

That is a really interesting bit of info - thanks Nigel. I had been under the impression that they were just using iron sights in Egypt (sniper training and Battle of Romadi), and that they first got their hands on scoped rifles in Salonika, but certainly looks, from that article, like they had them then in Gallipoli. Key organisers there I suspect would have been Sgt Donny McPhearson (Mentioned in Dispatches/KIA at Le Cateau in 1918) and Cpl Lewis Finney DCM, who were both recommended to my Grandfather as NCO's for his sniper section by Major Sir Archie Lyle on return to Egypt, as a result of their scouting/sniping performance at Gallipoli.

[Roger Payne]

And to think how often I take my wife in vain.........she's managed to scan the three pages onto her laptop & email to me, so here goes. Apologies for the rather poor quality copies, but that's how they came. You may need to enlarge them a little to read comfortably. May be something of interest to a few. Nigel will recognize at least one, if not all three....

There's a comment about increasing the range grads from 600 to 1000 yds, comparison being made to how German scopes were (already) graduated to 1000m!

[lmg15]

Another very interesting bunch of leads to follow. Regret that I am pressed for time to respond, but until I can elaborate further, a few observations.
1. I was scratching my head too about the difference in the descriptions of "fitted by" and "supplied and fitted by" when compared with the WO spec being "fitted only". Seems to bear out my earlier comment about why would PPC ship scopes to the WO to have them shipped back for fitting? I think the answer is becoming clearer since the PPC scopes are "supplied and fitted" vs the Aldis scopes that are universally only "fitted". Looks like this PPC privilege was also extended to only one other maker capable of providing both scopes and fitting up services.
2. I have a copy of some of the SAC minutes (possibly the same ones?) but will have to pull them out to compare with what you have there Roger. When I read it years ago, I was under the impression that the Hensoldt Light Pattern scope (the DIALYT 3X) was mounted on a captured German short rifle, but reading the pages you have posted, it appears to be a Hensoldt scope with original German scope mounts fitted to an SMLE that has had bespoke rifle mounts made for it.
3. Scopes used in Gallipoli. IIRC, Bryce Courtney makes a big deal about an Aldis being used, but at the time of reading this work of fiction, I thought that it would have been a PPC if anything. Anyway, that memory is a bit hazy, but I wonder on what basis he incorporated an Aldis scope into the plot. Too late to ask him now, but there may be some hints in the Acknowledgements section. If scopes were issued at Gallipoli, I would have thought it would have been to British forces primarily.

[Madzi]

The Glew radium tubes in Roger's first document would have been for the brass night sights fitted to the SMLE, I would assume? I wonder who had the contract to make those? (Those are mentioned in James Anderson's journal, so one of my Holy Grail items, if anyone spots any going...;-). For the second doc, I've got quite an interesting (unfortunately interwar, so not the one) Henzolt-Wetzler, which has the same tube dimensions as the M1918 - (shown here with M1918 mounts, and next to a Fuess 5 for comparisome, but focusing ring disallows straight use of the mounts). Pretty sure that would have the same "parent" as the M1918.

[Promo]

For the second doc, I've got quite an interesting (unfortunately interwar, so not the one) Henzolt-Wetzler, which has the same tube dimensions as the M1918 - (shown here with M1918 mounts, and next to a Fuess 5 for comparisome, but focusing ring disallows straight use of the mounts). Pretty sure that would have the same "parent" as the M1918.

You are comparing it with a commercial Hensoldt scope. If you take the military variant and hold it next to a PPCo scope (well, in my case here next to a BSA Irish Contract scope), it becomes quite obvious:

[lmg15]

A quiet Saturday morning, so time to address some of the info from previous posts and add a bit more.

Promo, you beat me to the punch regarding a comparison photo of the Patt 1918 and Hensoldt Dialyt 3X. An interesting example of the Dialyt 3X you have there, but not sure which version you have from the photo. I was surprised to find that there are two distinct types. Judging by the scope serial numbers, all I can say is that there is an early and later type. The attached photo compares the early and later types with the body of a Patt 18 scope to make the similarities and differences a bit clearer.
Attachment 108361
The bottom scope is the early type serial number 6067 with military mounts from Gew No.1319p. Range drum graduations are from 1-6. Scope body diameter is 22.0mm and ocular cone diameter is 29.5mm. The ocular lenses are held in by a single brass locking ring. Steel tube has overall length of 211mm. No focus adjustment.

The top scope is the later type serial number 9278 with Patt 1918 mounts (don't read anything into that). Original German rifle number has probably been erased. Range drum graduations are from 1-10. Scope body diameter is 22.0mm, but the ocular cone is wider at 31.75mm, with the ocular lenses being held in by a compound arrangement of two brass locking rings. Overall length of the steel tube is also 211mm. No focus adjustment.

The Patt 18 steel tube in the middle is there for comparison. As we are aware, the range drum graduations will be 1-10. Scope body diameter is 22mm as per both of the Dialyt scopes, but ocular cone is 29.5 as per the early type Dialyt. Other differences are the Patt 18 has a sliding focus adjustment as per the previous patterns of most German and Brit scopes. Steel tube length is 199mm, so 12mm shorter than the Dialyts, but used the Aldis type deflection prism rather than a windage adjustment on the rear leg as per the German scopes.

I had a look for my copies of the SAC Minutes, and could only find the LMG15 ones (215) that had a reference to a late German pattern Goertz turret mount scope. Anyway, still an interesting point about the Dialyt 3X being mounted on an SMLE in 1917.

Following discussion on Govt acceptance marks on Galilean optics, I had a look at my Martins example. No arrows at all, but the wooden case lid is marked, "Sight, Martins, Optical" using a military style of nomenclature.

I only have the front half of a Lattey optical sight, but it has the full broad arrow. Still looking for the rear half...

Madzi, there is a book "Southern Cross Scotts" which lists all of the personnel in the 1st & 2nd Battalion Scottish Horse in South Africa. It has some good contemporary cartoon illustrations showing the difference between the Australian and Scottish approach. My great uncle had three serial numbers in 2Bn SH, two are in the book and one on his QSA medal.

[Surpmil]

I've never understood why the S.A.C. was apparently so fascinated by this Hensoldt. As far as I can tell there was nothing to distinguish it from an Oigee, Bock or Goerz etc.; mechanically or optically. Or an Aldis for that matter.

One gets the impression that very little of such stuff ever made it back from France except as closely guarded souvenirs and thus when this piece, in the the third year of the war no less, finally came into their hands they were apparently much struck by the novelty of it and didn't have the knowledge to put it in a proper perspective(?)

The wider front mount is perhaps more stable and robust than the usual claw mounts, but still as inherently unsound as lacking any mechanical provision for windage adjustment, and thus when the usual little capstan screw in the rear leg was turned, the tube and mounts were simply twisted within each other until hopefully the desired position was obtained before any distortion or damage occurred! Except in the example above, there is no dovetail and screw in the rear leg! Resting the "hooks" of the front ring on a bar that runs across the base is certainly an improvement on the little claws and hand-carved notches, but as soon as the windage is adjusted, one ring "hook" or other must begin to part company with its matching bar...

As for ease and cost of manufacture, and interchangeability...what is the attraction over for example the mounts already(? Yes, I know one is a later Aldis No.4) being fitted by makers like Alex Martin and Alex Henry, and even perhaps Geo. Gibbs. (Photos attached) Those had a dovetail block in a mount base, adjustable via a screw, or two, and either a round front peg or a single claw. Certainly the claw is an inherently poor design as to pivot it must have sufficient side clearance to so, and the farther the claw projects forward, the wider the clearance must be, and thus the harder it becomes to keep the front claw from slipping left and right rather than simply pivoting. Chiselling such things out of blocks of softened steel and filing them to a perfect fit would delight the soul of the "feinhandwerkmeister" or whatever the proper term is , but in wartime....??

The round peg (give Purdey at least credit for that) in the front base does allow a proper pivot, and this was belatedly what Goerz tried to achieve with their "Semi-turret" design, thought they ended up with two round pegs, which was easier to manufacture at least.

So at the risk of being repetitive, it's hard to avoid the impression that the S.A.C. having heard stories about the "wonderful German sights" etc. for several years, were all agog at this Hensoldt and assumed that it was some great advance over existing scopes and mounts, and ordained that it was to be the pattern, etc. etc.! But was it? Not as far as I can see. How is it better or cheaper than a H&H fitting for example?

If they wanted a small and light scope, they could have gone back to Dr. Common's, if anyone remembered it from 15 years before?

And is the Patt.18 any better than the Aldis No.3 or 4? Or any much cheaper or easier to make? Not that I can see.

What was wanted was a fully sealed scope with reliable external adjustments, and preferably an etched reticule with the hold-overs for each range marked on the reticule: once zeroed only the point of aim needs to be changed. Warner & Swasey started it* with their ranging stadia lines, and the Japanese perfected it in the Arisaka scopes, but I digress. They could even had added radium illumination via one of those small capsules - Sir Howard Grubb had already suggested illuminated reticules in 1900! A design that would have allowed the base to be machined after fitting to achieve proper collimation as per the No.4(T) and Arisakas would have been preferable as well.

* May precede them actually - seem to recall reading something that referred to a 19th C. American scope maker incorporating several crosshairs for different ranges.