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    Contributing Member Bob Seijas's Avatar
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    OT Spitfire

    This is worth a look... American pilot in US-marked Spit recon over Berlin. Wow!
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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

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    Contributing Member Tom in N.J.'s Avatar
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    Both the 31st and 52nd USAAF fighter groups flew the Spitfire in WWII. That is at least 6 fighter squadrons. The were stationed in Great Britainicon (8th Air Force), North Africa (12th A.F.) and Italyicon (15th A.F.) They transitioned into P-51s in 1944.

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    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    He kept the nose well up until it stopped forward motion, probably had it in mind too so he wouldn't catch and flip. I was surprised to see the wooden prop...late in the war. But no armor or bullet proof windscreen either, guess they just figured it would be much lighter and with no guns you couldn't do much.
    Regards, Jim

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    Contributing Member Flying10uk's Avatar
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    The photo reconnaissance version of the Spitfire relied on it's speed for it's defence rather than having any guns.

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    Legacy Member GeeRam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by browningautorifleicon View Post
    I was surprised to see the wooden prop...late in the war.
    All the Rotol prop blades fitted to all marks of Spitfires were of wood construction from late 1940 onwards.

    It was only the early Rotol 3 blade design from 1939 and early 1940 that were alloy. The shortage of aluminium lead to the change over to various types of wood laminate construction for the remainder of the war. It also saved engines as well, as the wooden blades shattered and there was less tendency to shock load the engine in the event of a crash landing like that.

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    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeRam View Post
    All the Rotol prop blades fitted to all marks of Spitfires were of wood construction from late 1940 onwards.
    Didn't know that but...
    Quote Originally Posted by GeeRam View Post
    It also saved engines as well, as the wooden blades shattered and there was less tendency to shock load the engine in the event of a crash landing like that.
    It all makes sense from that point of view too.
    Regards, Jim

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    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Using a single engine fighter as a photo reconnaissance (PR) plane is only a good idea from the speed point of view. Were there extra Spitfires about?

    If the Supermarine fans at the Air Ministry couldn't accept the Westland Whirlwind as a fighter it would probably have made a very good PR plane.

    The Mosquito was another private venture plane like the Whirlwind that the Air Minister and RAF high command seem to have accepted only reluctantly when war and sheer performance made it impossible for them to refuse.

    The Mosquito had similar speed to the Whirlwind, but being a proper bomber, to use the Mossies as PR planes didn't make much sense unless they weren't needed as bombers - which was never the case.

    But the Whirlwind had so many enemies they pulled them all from service and scrapped them even while the war was still on! (1943)

    Even Dowding seems to have had some animus against them as he sent them all up to Scotland for the Battle of Britainicon, despite being faster than Spitifires and with four 20mm cannon when the Spitfire and Hurricane had none.

    Erhardt Milch and no doubt a few others greatly feared the Mosquito would be used in large numbers. Feared because it was almost too fast to catch, could bomb at low level with much greater accuracy and only had a two man crew.

    But Bomber Harris & Co. had their lovely Lancs by then and weren't letting go of them; some things are more important than just winning wars you know.
    Last edited by Surpmil; 04-29-2020 at 10:35 PM.
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    Legacy Member 22SqnRAE's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing this, what a magnificent story and interview! The realisation on his face that the footage was him was very moving. Outstanding.
    Last edited by 22SqnRAE; 04-30-2020 at 01:02 AM.
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    Legacy Member GeeRam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    Using a single engine fighter as a photo reconnaissance (PR) plane is only a good idea from the speed point of view. Were there extra Spitfires about?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    If the Supermarine fans at the Air Ministry couldn't accept the Westland Whirlwind as a fighter it would probably have made a very good PR plane.
    No it wouldn’t have, the one thing you need in a PR aircraft as well as speed is range, and one of the Whirlwind’s problems was it was quite range limited, around 300 mile combat range, which given it was originally envisaged as an escort fighter, was a bit of a problem.
    Even the early PR IV versions of the Spitfire that entered PR service in late 1940 had more than treble that range, and fly higher, and could range as far as the northern coast of Poland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    The Mosquito was another private venture plane like the Whirlwind that the Air Minister and RAF high command seem to have accepted only reluctantly when war and sheer performance made it impossible for them to refuse.

    The Mosquito had similar speed to the Whirlwind, but being a proper bomber, to use the Mossies as PR planes didn't make much sense unless they weren't needed as bombers - which was never the case.
    Rubbish, the 2nd ever Mosquito built was built as a PR version, so that role was envisaged for the aircraft while the 1st one flew for the first time in late 1940. The Mosquito was 40mph faster than the Whirlwind out of the box, as it was 40 mph faster than the then fastest Spitfire. It could fly higher as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    But the Whirlwind had so many enemies they pulled them all from service and scrapped them even while the war was still on! (1943)
    The Whirlwind’s biggest enemy was Rolls-Royce. The problems they had with the Peregrine in the early stages was really what hampered the Whirlwind, Westland didn’t get its first production deliveries of the Peregine until early 1940, and the pressure was on RR to produce as many Merlins as it could, and they simply didn’t want to divert much needed resources to the Peregrine, which they knew was limited in its development potential. Teddy Petter had designed the Whirlwind around the Peregrine, and it would have been a complete from scratch re-design to redo around another engine at a time when there were already existing options that were offered as much or more capability.The other big problem in 1940 was the fact that Petter’s design while being advanced, consumed 3 times the amount of aluminium than was needed to build a Spitfire, and we needed as many fighter aircraft as we could build.
    The Whirlwind was just the wrong aircraft at the wrong time. Had it managed to enter full production just a year earlier, I suspect that things would have been very different for the type in RAF service, but that wasn’t to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    Erhardt Milch and no doubt a few others greatly feared the Mosquito would be used in large numbers. Feared because it was almost too fast to catch, could bomb at low level with much greater accuracy and only had a two man crew.

    But Bomber Harris & Co. had their lovely Lancs by then and weren't letting go of them; some things are more important than just winning wars you know.
    Harris still needed Lancs, as the Mossie couldn't deliver more than a Cookie as a bomb load, which had it place in precision raids and pathfinding roles, but when Lancs were carrying 3 times that in general loads and more for shorter ranges, the RAF couldn't have relied on the Mossie alone for what it was doing.

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    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Extra Spitfires in 1940? After Barbarossa began and the Luftwaffe went east one could argue the case I suppose, but I always had the impression the Battle of Britainicon was a close run thing fought with inadequate supplies of fighters and without cannon armament; other than the Whirlwind that is. Am I wrong there?

    If the Supermarine fans at the Air Ministry couldn't accept the Westland Whirlwind as a fighter it would probably have made a very good PR plane.

    No it wouldn’t have, the one thing you need in a PR aircraft as well as speed is range, and one of the Whirlwind’s problems was it was quite range limited, around 300 mile combat range, which given it was originally envisaged as an escort fighter, was a bit of a problem.

    I’m not really an air anorak, but I always understood “the one thing you need in a PR aircraft is altitude. Doesn’t really matter how fast you go as long as they can’t reach you with their planes or AA. Didn’t the Germans fly that two cycle diesel powered PR plane that only did about 185 knots over the UK with impunity, until a special Spitfire was adapted to climb high enough to reach it?

    Even the early PR IV versions of the Spitfire that entered PR service in late 1940 had more than treble that range, and fly higher, and could range as far as the northern coast of Poland.

    Didn’t we have a problem with the limited range of Spits and Hurricanes for bomber escort? Yes, stripped of guns and every scrap of weight and with extra tanks put in the PR Spitfires had the range, but are you certain that the Whirlwind would not have had a similar capability if similarly prepared, with drop tanks if necessary? Two engines does double your chances of getting home again, usually. The speed was there too.

    The Mosquito was another private venture plane like the Whirlwind that the Air Minister and RAF high command seem to have accepted only reluctantly when war and sheer performance made it impossible for them to refuse.

    I’m sure you’re familiar with how DeHavilland kept on with the Mosquito on his own money despite the resistance and lack of interest from the Air Ministry.

    The Mosquito had similar speed to the Whirlwind, but being a proper bomber, to use the Mossies as PR planes didn't make much sense unless they weren't needed as bombers - which was never the case.

    Rubbish, the 2nd ever Mosquito built was built as a PR version, so that role was envisaged for the aircraft while the 1st one flew for the first time in late 1940. The Mosquito was 40mph faster than the Whirlwind out of the box, as it was 40 mph faster than the then fastest Spitfire. It could fly higher as well.

    What’s rubbish exactly? I think it’s recognized that altitude (which you didn’t mention) and range were the critical requirements for PR. Of course if you’re fast enough, like Mosquito you can do without altitude, risky with radar around, but doable. We all know the Mosquito was probably the most capable and multi-role aircraft of the war. The fact that it was partly envisaged and some were built for PR early on proves what, other than that its overall superiority made it excellent for that role among others and that DeHavilland could easily forsee both what it could be used for and how he might “sell” the Air Ministry and RAF on the plane?

    I can’t see that the potential of the Mosquito proves that the Whirlwind couldn’t have been prepared for that role similarly to the Spitfire. I suppose one could easily make the case that in 1940 and 41 the Whirlwind was a better anti-bomber aircraft than the Spitfire, so putting Spits onto PR work would have made sense from that perspective, except that the superiority of the Whirlwind apparently wasn’t accepted by Fighter Command for the anti-bomber role either!

    So we’re still left with the strange animus against the Whirlwind, a plane its pilots described as a joy to fly and “without faults”, and as you know, faster than the He70, aka Spitfire and far more heavily armed when introduced. Not only carrying four 20mm cannon when the Spitfire and Hurricane had none, but mounting them centrally, greatly simplifying aiming, improving accuracy and concentration of fire on the target. No doubt you also know that the destructive power of a 20mm hit is exponentially greater than a far higher number of .303 hits and that interception and engagement times also multiply the value of cannon over machine guns for that reason.

    I have no idea of the relative manoeuvrability of Whirlwind vs the Spitfire or Hurricane, but assume they could turn tighter. It hardly matters, in the hands of a Joachim Marseille the Whirlwind would have been used to best advantage: high speed dives onto the targets, a few bursts in the right places, a fast dive away and round to do it again. (I may be doing Marseille an injustice there!)

    I can well believe that Dowding and others had some emotional antipathy to the idea of a twin-engined fighter, just as others had emotional objections to using 3.7"AA guns against tanks, or adopting a 76mm HV low profile multi-purpose gun like the one Vickers sold to the Turks and the Dutch between the wars. And by the way, anyone who thinks senior officers or senior bureaucrats are immune to such irrational influences, even in wartime, is IMHO deluding themselves.

    You may be right that RR was an enemy of the Whirlwind, it would depend how cosy their relationship was with Supermarine I suppose; probably pretty darn cosy. One might be able to find out why more effort wasn’t put into the Peregrine, but with a limited market and no particular relationship or perceived advantage to one with a small firm like Westland, it would probably have taken a push from the Air Ministry, and that clearly wasn’t going to happen.

    The aluminum question must come down to overall available supply and the relative fighting value of each aircraft. Considering the armament and the importance of that, I’d say that until the Spitfire got four cannons, the Whirlwind in the right hands and with the right tactics was well worth the cost, unless supply was so short that aircraft production was literally held up. Not that converging guns will ever be equal to line of sight in value.

    There was certainly a role for Lancasters, I’m certainly not denying that, but were the losses worth it? That of course gets into the whole precision bombing vs. area bombing argument and Germanyicon certainly needed a good area bombing, but was it as much of a war winner as true precision bombing would have been?

    We all know how largely wasted area bombing effort was, except in cases like Japanicon were incendiaries were particularly effective. Three times the load but does it really matter if most of it doesn’t hit the target?

    And then we have the funny choices, like not preventing the repair of the dams by further raids, and the squabbles over aircraft with Coastal Command, despite the clear fact that the war really could be lost in the Atlantic. We all know Harris was absolutely determined on area bombing, largely for emotional reasons, which in all fairness were quite understandable on one level, but also totally unacceptable in a senior commander on whose choices tens of thousands of his subordinates will live or die. But then senior officers are just as fallible as anyone else.

    4000 pounds is a pretty respectable bomb load; about as much as a B17 IIRC. Put on target worth a lot more than 12,000 or 20,000 pounds mostly spread over the surrounding area. Not so different from one well placed bullet versus fifty that pass overhead.
    Last edited by Surpmil; 05-01-2020 at 01:03 AM.
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

    Edward Bernays, 1928

    Much changes, much remains the same.

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