Rounds from an earlier time

[#1oilman]

I was sorting through a pile of accumulated loose rounds recently and came across these two early pieces both were loaded by Dominion Arsenals,both are jacketed in cupro nickel,one round nosed the other round nosed hollow pointed. I had no idea that Canadian forces had ever used the hollow point until I did a little digging online.

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[RCS]

I have a few, they are also starting to get expensive now, in the $30 to $40 price range per cartridge.

I have a later Mark 11 cordite as the black powder is quite rare to find.

also have the Mark IV from 1898 and the Mark V from 1899 and again in 1903.

None are that rare and the chargers can still be found, just nice to have these cartridges with your early riflesAttachment 107717Attachment 107718Attachment 107719

[pocketshaver]

the thing is.......

just when did the dumb dumbs of the british empire start the whole crappy filler in the tip of the bullet?

the solid lead and jacketed 303 worked fine, and when filled down so a tad of lead showed, had excellent expansion. And when given the hollowpoint, even better expansion.

[CINDERS]

They got around it being outlawed with the MkVII pill as it becomes inherently unstable with the heavy base once the nose crumples the ali filler causing the bullet to tumble inside the 303 MkVII round was pretty good at harvesting humans

[pocketshaver]

all the enfield slugs were good at dropping people and animals.

Just that I don't see the reason that the british kept using the SOLIDS when they ha proof the germans were using commercial hunting soft point ammo in the second boer

[Fruler]

I would love to have some round nose FMJ 303 to do some testing with. Have you shot any of those? I've done testing with round nose 7x57, 7.65x53 ... Unfortunately the 7.65x53 was shot from a carbine (22 inch) length bbl and averaged 1,929 fps with a 217 grain 1939 Belgian production ammo. I wish I had a full length 29 inch barrel to test that with. Of course there's know published data, but I like to actually make my own... And I don't mind sharing it either.

Smokeless powder was no doubt revolutionary but the spitzer bullet is where the true revolution was... Higher BC and they usually bumped up the powder charge too. By comparison, my 7.65x53 carbine will shoot a 174 grain bullet at 2,600 FPS... With factory Prvi ammo.

Although there's much hype about the 7x57, especially when it was introduced, I believe it's round nose bullet wasn't leaps and bounds superior to say the 303 British round nose or 30-40 krag.

With a DWM 7x57 rounds nose fired from a 29 inch barrel I averaged 2246 FPS with the 173 grain bullet... About 200 FPS faster than the round nose 303 British in published data. I have a hard time seeing how the 7x57 was so superior to the 30-40 krag and 303 British when they met on the battlefields of South Africa and San Juan hill... Especially when you add them into ballistics charts, the differences isn't much, especially within 300 yards or 300 meters ... The real difference is around the 500 yard mark... But realistically a well placed shot at those distances with iron sights is near impossible to pull off. A group of men shooting at that distance at a target is a better practice... That's why volley fire was practiced so much, even well into the 20th century. And this was a time when soldiers were only issued 50 cartridges for practice a year... It was less in wartime. I think the Germans prior to WW1 were allowed even less practice ammo.

[pocketshaver]

the 7x57 with a round nose may not have been much superior in terms of velocity then the round nose 303 or the krag jorgenson,

but it was superior at range. That is what actually mattered in the long run.

Ironically your presupposition against the use of long range shooting with these old loads is rather stupid. Even the black powder enfields had a rear sight for 1,000 yards.

[CINDERS]

Try buying a Kynoch 600NE I brought one @10 years ago and that cost me $90/AUD back then for a single, a Kynoch .33 BSA will set you back $80 if you can find one I managed to snag a unopened packet of 10 about 14 years ago.
I think they were only made from 1923-25 may be incorrect but it was not long anyway.

[browningautorifle]

a Kynoch 600NE

I got lucky back in about 1985 or so and one was given to me...no powder charge but live primed and bullet in place. You can pull it out with your fingers...

[Fruler]

the 7x57 with a round nose may not have been much superior in terms of velocity then the round nose 303 or the krag jorgenson,

but it was superior at range. That is what actually mattered in the long run.

Ironically your presupposition against the use of long range shooting with these old loads is rather stupid. Even the black powder enfields had a rear sight for 1,000 yards.

Can you even see a person at 1000 yards? Especially if that person is trying to hide from you... What if they're in khaki or camo colored clothing... Could you see them and have enough time to take a shot before they move? How about if a person takes a step back and fourth at 1000 yards in either direction... Do you think you could line your sights fast enough to actually even see the target move? I doubt you could. The front blade of the sight on basically any rifle would easily cover 3 humans torsos at that distance... Please think rationally.

Also, you have misunderstood what I'm saying... I'm not saying the cartridge couldn't do it ... The 303 cartridge very easily could make a hit at that distance, even in compressed black powder... Add yourself and a rifle into that mix and your odds are near zero at 1000. No military trained a rifle man to shoot 1000 yards back then... The British didn't even have what is now know as snipers when the black powder cartridge 303 was around. The Germans had trained snipers in WW1 ... They were trained to shoot within 400 yards, with a scope... again, it's not about if the cartridge could do past 400 yards... it easily can, people cant. The only reason 303 was black powder to start with was because the British were working on a smokeless load and couldn't get the powder formula right... 303 was designed from the beginning to be smokeless... It was only through unfortunate circumstances that it wasn't. As for long range, yes 7x57 will win but at point blank distance (300 yards) both cartridges during the round nose heavy ball phase would perform equally well.

Long range machine gun fire and volley fire was for 1000 yards...

---------- Post added at 06:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------

Its not just about velocity with the 7x57 being superior to the .303 or the 30-40 Krag. The bullet for the 7x57 is 40 to 50 grs lighter then the others and higher velocity. That translates into lighter felt recoil which adds in properly aimed fire. The 7mm is a penetrator. Just ask the 6000 Elephants Bell shot with the 7x57.

303 Brit is a very soft shooting cartridge IMO for a 30 Cal bullet, probably the softest shooting 30 Cal in a battle rifle. I have trouble telling much of a difference in felt recoil between 303 and 7x57. On paper 7x57 would have less but it's very subjective... Hard for me to tell the difference. I have a hard time seeing how superior 7x57 is to 303. Within point blank range, where most shots are fired... The difference is minimal...