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  1. #1
    Contributing Member #1oilman's Avatar
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    Rounds from an earlier time

    I was sorting through a pile of accumulated loose rounds recently and came across these two early pieces both were loaded by Dominion Arsenals,both are jacketed in cupro nickel,one round nosed the other round nosed hollow pointed. I had no idea that Canadianicon forces had ever used the hollow point until I did a little digging online.

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    Really Senior Member RCS's Avatar
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    early 303 Calibre cartridges

    I have a few, they are also starting to get expensive now, in the $30 to $40 price range per cartridge.

    I have a later Mark 11 cordite as the black powder is quite rare to find.

    also have the Mark IV from 1898 and the Mark V from 1899 and again in 1903.

    None are that rare and the chargers can still be found, just nice to have these cartridges with your early rifles

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    Senior Member pocketshaver's Avatar
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    the thing is.......

    just when did the dumb dumbs of the british empire start the whole crappy filler in the tip of the bullet?

    the solid lead and jacketed 303 worked fine, and when filled down so a tad of lead showed, had excellent expansion. And when given the hollowpoint, even better expansion.

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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    They got around it being outlawed with the MkVII pill as it becomes inherently unstable with the heavy base once the nose crumples the ali filler causing the bullet to tumble inside the 303 MkVII round was pretty good at harvesting humans

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    Senior Member pocketshaver's Avatar
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    all the enfield slugs were good at dropping people and animals.

    Just that I don't see the reason that the british kept using the SOLIDS when they ha proof the germans were using commercial hunting soft point ammo in the second boer

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    I would love to have some round nose FMJ 303 to do some testing with. Have you shot any of those? I've done testing with round nose 7x57, 7.65x53 ... Unfortunately the 7.65x53 was shot from a carbine (22 inch) length bbl and averaged 1,929 fps with a 217 grain 1939 Belgian production ammo. I wish I had a full length 29 inch barrel to test that with. Of course there's know published data, but I like to actually make my own... And I don't mind sharing it either.

    Smokeless powder was no doubt revolutionary but the spitzer bullet is where the true revolution was... Higher BC and they usually bumped up the powder charge too. By comparison, my 7.65x53 carbine will shoot a 174 grain bullet at 2,600 FPS... With factory Prvi ammo.

    Although there's much hype about the 7x57, especially when it was introduced, I believe it's round nose bullet wasn't leaps and bounds superior to say the 303 Britishicon round nose or 30-40 krag.

    With a DWM 7x57 rounds nose fired from a 29 inch barrel I averaged 2246 FPS with the 173 grain bullet... About 200 FPS faster than the round nose 303 British in published data. I have a hard time seeing how the 7x57 was so superior to the 30-40 krag and 303 British when they met on the battlefields of South Africa and San Juan hill... Especially when you add them into ballistics charts, the differences isn't much, especially within 300 yards or 300 meters ... The real difference is around the 500 yard mark... But realistically a well placed shot at those distances with iron sights is near impossible to pull off. A group of men shooting at that distance at a target is a better practice... That's why volley fire was practiced so much, even well into the 20th century. And this was a time when soldiers were only issued 50 cartridges for practice a year... It was less in wartime. I think the Germans prior to WW1 were allowed even less practice ammo.
    Last edited by Fruler; 05-06-2020 at 12:25 AM.

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    Senior Member pocketshaver's Avatar
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    the 7x57 with a round nose may not have been much superior in terms of velocity then the round nose 303 or the krag jorgenson,

    but it was superior at range. That is what actually mattered in the long run.

    Ironically your presupposition against the use of long range shooting with these old loads is rather stupid. Even the black powder enfields had a rear sight for 1,000 yards.

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    Its all about queensberry rules not that it stopped the guys in the front line from chopping the tips off the 215 RN's with their bayonets exposing the lead core then putting an x in it to sorta act like a very early RIP bullet.
    As at those ranges of scant yards accuracy did not really matter as it would have blown a nice hole in you I will see if I can find the few rounds I have of this practice with some WWI 215 RN's in my collection.

    I have some drill old books 1905 showing enfilade fire the Brits practiced even showing over the hill firing yes the dispersion was pretty radical but who cares ammo's cheap and if you did get donged by a round at 1200-1300 yds from out of no where without your helmet on its gunna spoil your day but that was the doctrine in the day when I guess the MG's were in short supply.
    Last edited by CINDERS; 05-06-2020 at 05:59 AM.

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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    Try buying a Kynoch 600NE I brought one @10 years ago and that cost me $90/AUD back then for a single, a Kynoch .33 BSA will set you back $80 if you can find one I managed to snag a unopened packet of 10 about 14 years ago.
    I think they were only made from 1923-25 may be incorrect but it was not long anyway.

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    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CINDERS View Post
    a Kynoch 600NE
    I got lucky back in about 1985 or so and one was given to me...no powder charge but live primed and bullet in place. You can pull it out with your fingers...
    Regards, Jim

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