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    Legacy Member pocketshaver's Avatar
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    Ammunition types, .303 British

    Found a surplus web site that has boxes of original and repackaged british surplus ammunition.

    Even though the ammunition was made by the UKicon government, the same cartridge designations have been labeled as being made specifically for certain weapons.

    Ie, the same Mark VI can be labeled as "rifle", "Vickers gun", and "lewis gun" only.

    My question is, what sort of twit would have come up with idea like that. Seen to accounts over the years of ww1 machine gunners, particularly aircraft, taking boxes of pre belted .303 british and simply pulling them and sticking them in lewis drums. And so forth have seen far to many accounts from both wars and multiple regions of the infantry taking belted ammunition from unusable MG and unbolting them and using in their rifles.
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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

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    I can't explain all of the instances you cite above, but there was certainly two standards of ammunition in WW1 & through the inter-war period. There was ground service ammunition & air service ammunition. The air service ammunition was made to slightly tighter tolerances (I don't know the specifics but probably have them in a reference book somewhere) than ground service ammunition. Having your Vickers guns jam in mid-air was likely to be more of a problem than if it happened on the ground, hence the more stringently made ammo for the RFC/RNAS/RAF. I can't remember for certain but I think it may well have been in 1940 that the two standards were abolished & all ammunition was made to the air service standards. I believe packaging was marked, but individual rounds are easy to distinguish: ground service ammo was only marked with the last two digits of the date of manufacture, whereas air service ammunition was marked with the date in full. eg. GB 17 VII - Greenwood & Batley 1917 ground service ammunition; K 1918 VII - Kynoch 1918 air service ammunition; K 1918 VIIG - Kynoch 1918 air service tracer.
    Last edited by Roger Payne; 05-06-2020 at 07:31 PM.

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    Britishicon .303 was also marked NOT TO BE FIRED IN SYNCHRONIZED GUNS AFTER 19XX, June XX or whatever date they specified and it was marked on the chest..

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    Quote Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post

    My question is, what sort of twit would have come up with idea like that.
    Quality, quality control at work those twits knew what quality was needed for certain applications. The troops knew what was needed to keep them a live when the $%^& hit the fan

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    Legacy Member pocketshaver's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    only differentials I have ever seen mentioned in british government colour plates was differentiation between the material used to make the tip inserts, ie wood, bakelight, or alulminum

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    Quality control as in test firing the finished product on a regular basis for wear in the machinery, dies etc.

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    Legacy Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Another example was that Winchester were unable to meet the tight tolerances and their ammunition was labelled 'not suitable for aircraft use'.

    Extract from the War Office Instructions :
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

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    Legacy Member GeeRam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
    Ie, the same Mark VI can be labeled as "rifle", "Vickers gun", and "lewis gun" only.

    My question is, what sort of twit would have come up with idea like that.
    IIRC, the Mark VI for use in rifle had the flat base bullet heads, and the ammo for Vickers MG's was boat tail. Not sure about the Lewis.

    The flat base bullets work better in Lee-Enfields, but when the **** hits the fan, both work in each and will still so the job if one or other is all you've got.

    The Germans even made special 'match' grade sniper ammo for issue to the front line snipers, but given the logistics problems the Wehrmacht had throughout most of WW2, I wonder how many Germanicon snipers ever got to use the sniper grade ammo.

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    Legacy Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeeRam View Post
    IIRC, the Mark VI for use in rifle had the flat base bullet heads, and the ammo for Vickers MG's was boat tail. Not sure about the Lewis.

    The flat base bullets work better in Lee-Enfields, but when the **** hits the fan, both work in each and will still so the job if one or other is all you've got.

    The Germans even made special 'match' grade sniper ammo for issue to the front line snipers, but given the logistics problems the Wehrmacht had throughout most of WW2, I wonder how many Germanicon snipers ever got to use the sniper grade ammo.

    I presume you mean MkVII.
    MkVI was the 'round nosed' round and was replaced in 1910 with the MKVII

    The MK VIII (Boat-tail) or as the War Office call it "Streamlined" was not introduced until 1938



    Source :

    Army Ordnance Services Part 7 : Pamphlet No11
    Small Arms Ammunition
    Issued by the War Office - 24th February 1945

    (Extract from 131 page document)

    Mark 8Z 303-in SAA (Small Arms Ammunition) has a neonite load and a streamlined based bullet. Trial firings have proved that these (Mk7 and Mk8z) two types of ammunition do not wear the barrels in the same manner. Barrels which have been used for Mk7 or 303-in Tracer become inaccurate much sooner when Mk8Z is used in them, than barrels in which Mk8z only has been employed.
    One advantage of Mk8z ammunition is that the barrel maintains accuracy and elevation until the actual moment of collapse. No indication of approaching barrel failure is given when Mk8z ammunition is used. Accuracy is liable to break down very suddenly and the barrel becomes dangerous for use for overhead fire in the latter stages of its life. To ensure the safety of our own troops during overhead fire by medium machine guns, the life of a Vickers gun barrel using Mk8z SAA ONLY has, therefore been fixed at 10,000 rounds (or 40 belts). This figure is well within the number of rounds successfully completed by the earliest failure of barrels firing and endurance accuracy test under conditions of excessively rapid rates of fire. If, however even a few rounds of cordite loaded SAA are fired, the Mk8z accuracy life drops considerable.

    The following instructions regarding the use of these various types of 303-in SAA will be strictly enforced :-
    a).303-in. Vickers machine gun battalions.
    1) Mk8z ONLY to be used.
    2) Mixed belts of Mk8z and tracer must NOT be used.
    3) Any barrel that has fired Mk7 or .303-in tracer must NOT be used for firing Mk8Z
    4) Barrel life for Mk8Z is 10,000 rounds.

    Barrels of Vickers machine guns in machine gun battalions which have fired Mk7, .303-in tracer. Or .303-in AP SAA will be stamped with the figure 7 on the trunnion block and returned to ordnance through normal channels. New barrels for use with Mk8z will be demanded in exchange.


    b) Light Machine Guns*
    Mk8z being neonite loaded gives a small flash at night. When the Bren gun is being used for some special purpose at night, e.g. on a patrol, it may be desirable to make use of Mk8z in order to lessen the flash.

    c) Rifles*
    Mk8z SAA will not be used in rifles except as in the case of the Bren gun (see above), if necessity should arise.
    Last edited by Alan de Enfield; 05-07-2020 at 04:12 AM.
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

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    I think the Mk8z ball was essentially the military adoption of the inter-war developed target shooters' 303 SL (stream lined) bullet.

    The Bible on all this, apart from original government documentation of course, is the late Peter Labbett's superb work, simply entitled '.303 Inch', IIRC. I was lucky enough to pick up a copy about 25 years ago from Jeremy Tenniswood, when he had a few. About the same time I picked up the equivalent (& equally as detailed) book on the 7.9mm cartridge by Daniel Kent. Both are invaluable & both are almost impossible to find these days.......if anyone knows of copies of either of these books at anything less than stratospheric prices, then buy 'em!

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