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06-20-2020 08:46 AM
# ADS
Friends and Sponsors
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Hello Roger, thanks a lot for your kind feedback.
I think the term " all over" has to do with me being not a native speaker of english 🙈 to be exact there are 3 as far as i can see. 2 on the wood and 1 on the iron at the end of the receiver. Yes well i was hoping to post pictures of it but i just don't see how, maybe it has to do with me only using my smartphone and not a computer , i don't know.
And last of all, Ieper is not far away at all, me myself i am from Bruges.If you ever get lost give me a call ;-)
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Legacy Member
Does sound a bit odd.........
Also when you say matching numbers, I'm assuming the rifle has been renumbered for the Mk.III scope as a 1943 dated rifle wouldn't have had a Mk.III scope when built, with the Mk.III not entering service until autumn of 1944.
Of course, a lot of the changes could have been done while in Belgian military and Police service, using many different post-war parts sources over time, so it could be quite legit in its history in that respect.?
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Thank You to GeeRam For This Useful Post:
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Thanks GeeRam, I forgot to comment on the Mk3 scope on a 1943 rifle. One learns never to say never with LE's but it would be pretty unlikely 'factory new' for such a scope to be on this year of rifle. Mk3's were generally fitted to 1944 & 1945 dated rifles, though it could well have been fitted in military or police service 'officially' as a replacement.
Skider, your home town is one of the most interesting & beautiful historic cities I have ever visited!
I am afraid I am not IT savvy enough to advise you on the posting of photo's from a smart phone, but someone else may be able to......
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Contributing Member
Canadian troops in WWII were usually equipped with Canadian made No.4 Mk.I or No.4 Mk.I* rifles by 1943, but the exception was sniper rifles. Canada
made about 1,588 No.4 Mk.I* (T) sniper rifles in WWII, mostly in 1944-1946, but reportedly most of these were sent to the British Army. As we now understand it, Canadian snipers overseas were issued with their sniper rifles out of the British supply system. Thus they could end up with rifles made in England, Canada or the USA. Some of the wartime photos show Canadian snipers using very early No.4 Mk.I (T) sniper rifles with the Mk.I dome shaped cocking piece. By the time of the Korean War, it appears that more Long Branch made sniper rifles were available for the Canadian troops but British made examples were probably still in the Canadian supply system which could explain this one ending up in Belgian service. For more information see the book WITHOUT WARNING by the late Clive Law.
In the 1950s Canada sent a lot of military vehicles, equipment and weapons as NATO aid to Belgium. Several sniper rifles with their No.15 Mk.I wooden chests, have turned up in Belgium and Australia that have the Canadian markings on the chests from the time they were given to the Belgian Army. I had an ex-Belgian issue Long Branch sniper rifle with scope case and like yours, fitted with a No.32 Mk.III scope and renumbered accordingly.
British or American made rifles in Canadian military service are often found with C/|\ (arrow inside the “C”) markings. I have seen one such No.4 Mk.I (T), some No.1 Mk.III and III*, Model of 1917 Enfields and Winchester Model 1894 carbines. .
A 1943 BSA No.4 Mk.I (T) would almost certainly have left Holland & Holland fitted with a No.32 Mk.I scope or possibly a No.32 Mk.II scope. A No.32 Mk.3 (marked No.32 Mk.III, No.32 Mk3 or C No.32 Mk.3) would have been fitted in late 1944 or later, either as a replacement for a damaged or lost scope or as an upgrade. When this happened in British or Canadian service The old scope number was cancelled e.g. XXXXX or ———— and the new scope number was stamped on. The bracket was numbered to the rifle. On the rifle in question look for the “S51” stamped into the underside of the butt stock stock and for current and previous scope serial numbers on top.
Belgian issued sniper rifles sometimes have a Belgian monogram in a circle (similar to a Liege marking) in the wood, on the underside, just forward of the magazine. When renumbered brackets were fitted, sometimes only the last four digits of a serial number were marked on the bracket (more evidence is need to be sure). Some rifles had the metal refinished in the Belgian grey finish.
We would need to see photos of the markings on the rifle and the chest, if you have it, to confirm but it is most likely that this rifle was made in England, issued to Canadians, marked as Canadian property, likely used in Italy and/or Northwest Europe, sent to Canada, and then given as NATO aid to the Belgian Army.
I collect Canadian sniper rifles of WWII and would be happy to help to understand the markings on this rifle. I would also like to add it to the research database on the No.4 (T) rifles, so especially want for the database the rifle serial number, serial number on the bracket, scope serial number and the scope numbers on the butt (on top behind or under the cocking piece). The more information and photos the better!
Last edited by Seaforth72; 06-20-2020 at 01:43 PM.
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Contributing Member
This is an unusual rifle and I wish to remind readers that we have a newcomer here asking for information about a rifle that he obtained from a family member. He is not trying to sell it as far as I know. It is also important to remember that this rifle appears to have been used by the Canadian Army and then for decades after WWII in Belgian service. The rifle went through many changes in ways that are very different from what would have happened had it remained in the British Army. It appears that this rifle may have gone through a Belgian rebuild process or at least a major servicing/repair e.g. the barrel. There are many odd features about this No. 4 Mk. I (T). The owner is in Belgium and is new to Lee-Enfields. Due to the strict firearms laws in Belgium, the owner is not allowed to have ammunition for it, nor his he allowed to take it out to shoot.
Here is the provenance of this rifle that the owner sent to me along with photos [we shall see about getting the photos posted shortly] : "I wish i could give you more information all i know is that about 20 + years ago this was sold by the " gendarmerie " my uncle at the time was a colonel and bought it togetgher with some FN GP pistoles. stuff that was sitting still in a warehouse for decades . Service people had the first choice before the lot was sold to armsdealers. If someone was in between as a middleman i honestly couldnt say. This is the " story " how i heard it from him. I got it from him about 10 years ago." "I didnt find any canadian markings on the transport case though. Only some letters and 1944. You will notice on the case the word " telescoop" in dutch instead of telescope. Also the number 17352. My scope is 17080, so not that much of a differance. I also noticed the marking "GF" on the scope bracket, never found any explenation for that. Please keep in mind that here in Belgium we are absolutely clueless about this kind of weapons. Absolutely no info available."
I suggest looking at the articles in the milsurps.com Knowledge Library. https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...united-kingdom
There are indications (see below) that this rifle was made in England, but that it was official Canadian property. Many people assume that since Canada made Long Branch sniper rifles, that these were what was issued to Canadian snipers. Research has shown that although some Long Branch sniper rifles were retained in Canada, many or even most, were sent to the British Army. Canadian snipers overseas were issued their rifles out of British sniper rifle stockpiles, so a Canadian sniper could have been issued a 1931-1933 ex-Trials No. 4 Mk. I (T), a Stevens-Savage one, a British made one or possibly even a Canadian made Long Branch example, but that would be by chance. "stencollector" on this forum has an example as he mentioned and I have examined it. The C/|\ on that is much smaller and is in a slightly different location, in a manner consistent with how many No. 1 Mk. III* rifles were Canadian issue marked, including my father's one which I still have.
In the 1950s the Canadian Army gave away many tons of vehicles, small arms, field artillery etc. to NATO allies including Belgium. This program is known to have included No. 4 (T) sniper rifles and their No. 15 Mk. I transit chests. At least a couple of chests have survived with the markings put on at that time saying that these were a gift from the Canadian Army to the Belgian Army. In cases like this where the chest has been repainted in European service, such NATO markings and the earlier wartime markings, may still be present under the later paint, though we know that this chest was used with a different rifle as per the markings on it.
Some observations follow. Note that when I type C/|\ you should assume that this is the Canadian issue mark with the arrow inside the C, except as stated for the leather scope caps:
RIFLE:
Made by BSA The original BSA serial number is unknown as the original markings were linished off, but it might be AT5705 -(see comments under BRACKET below) It was renumbered with a Canadian Long Branch serial number 48L3954 on the body and the bolt is a Canadian one with the same number. 48L3954 Bolt handle has C/|\ on top of the knob. Note that the Canadian Army did sometimes transfer serial numbers between firearms, although this was usually done with spare bodies produced for that purpose. This rifle has "M47C" (BSA Shirley 1943-1945 period wartime code) stamped in above the new Canadian serial number and 1943 stamped below the serial number. Barrel is dated 1943, was refinished in the Belgian grey colour and has Belgian proof markings. Front scope pad is staked. Rifle has the "T" with serifs by the ejector screw. No "TR" is visible, but may well have been linished off. The photos received so far do not show if there was an "S" on the right side of the body below the bolt head. The correct examiner's marked are present on the body on each side of the cocking piece. There is a large C/|\ stamp on top to the receiver ring as shown in "An Armourer's Perspective" p. 54. I have only seen this mark once before and that was on a totally correct 1941 Long Branch No. 4 Mk. I and it is a Canadian ownership mark, indicating that this rifle was on Canadian issue. Furniture: Butt is Canadian made, with C/|\ and stadium with 14 and tiny C/|\ inside). Oddly it has "S51" marked on it which is odd as Canada did not use that marking and Holland and Holland did not convert Canadian rifles to sniping equipment. The "S51" is in a different font, so was it applied by an armourer (possibly Belgian?) when changing the butt stock? Possibly dutifully copying the marking even though not understanding its meaning (better safe than sorry)? The butt plate is gunmetal which people mistake for brass, and is apparently British. Front sight is British /|\. Upper band is Long Branch ("LB" monogram) marked. The sling swivel in front to the magazine is a civilian Parker-Hale marked target shooting (tall shaft, rotates 360 degrees) version.
The rifle is presently matched to a No. 32 Mk. III scope serial number 17080 as marked on the wrist below the cocking piece. The number stamping is not as well spaced as on British and Canadian converted examples. The original scope serial number, as fitted by Holland and Holland at the time of conversion to sniper equipment, is not there as the butt has obviously been changed, presumably in service.
SCOPE: MATCHED by Belgians? "TEL STG No 32 MK III / OS 2039 A / AK&S No 17080 / 1944 / /|\" Leather scope caps marked "C/|\ 86 V5-105-2143 " (Note the C/|\ is not the Canadian issue mark on this as the arrow is outside of the C on this set.)
BRACKET: Made by Rose Brothers in WWII. Marked "JG" Also marked with large "GF" Caps marked rear 557 and front 558. The "GF" mark is puzzling as it is generally thought to be an Indian Army marking. Bracket has rifle number AT 5705 which was a 1943 BSA. Could this have been the original BSA serial number of this rifle? That might help to explain why it was not renumbered when the rifle was renumbered.
SCOPE CASE:
No. 8 Mk. I by B & Co. Steel, square corners. No year? Paper labels inside lid of case. One left plain white paper RIFLE No / M47C TELESCOPE No / AKES No 17080" (two errors as maker code shown as serial number and AK&S shown as AKES) On tight side is instruction "LABEL R.339" Early tool marked "STG. TEL. / MK. 3" No carrying strap.
CHEST:
No. 15 Mk. I MISMATCHED as it is for rifle AM7404. Made in 1944 in the UK, apparently by CAMBRIDGE. No instruction label glued inside the lid. British folded leather handles and British 3-screw top hinges. [Canadian made chests had folded and sewn leather handles and 4-screws in top hinges] Chest was repainted and has markings, apparently in Dutch. Unit identity of "1/II" on left and left end of lid. Stencilled on front in white using European number shapes, "LEE. ENF. AM 7404 / TELESCOOP 17352" Note that chests being permanently numbered to a rifle was generally a post-war feature as used by police, RAF and foreign armies. During the war, the protocol was the rifle serial number was pencilled on a small form which was printed on paper and this was then inserted into a tin metal frame at one end of the chest. The paper was changed every time a different rifle was put into the chest for shipping or storage.
Last edited by Badger; 06-21-2020 at 03:49 PM.
Colin MacGregor Stevens
https://www.captainstevens.com [B]Model 1918 scope ideally w P14 rings; LB Scout Sniper Rifle windmill sight & furniture; No. 4 Mk. I* 28L0844; any rifle with S/N ASE-xxxx ; No.32 Mk. I SN 1042.
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The Following 4 Members Say Thank You to Seaforth72 For This Useful Post:
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Legacy Member
Thank you so much for your professional and very detailed explenation!I couldn't ask for more. I can imagine that when your heart beats for original british and canadian fire arms you get a bit upset having to see my rifle. Sounds a bit Frankenstein to me. But at least it was in service for many more years and i am sure it performed how it was supose to. Thanks a lot!
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