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  1. #1
    Legacy Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
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    Barrel length

    I am curious how the barrel length of the no 1, no 4 and no 5 rifles was determined. It seems if a shorter barrel would have been just as good in the no 1 and no 4, except for entrenched resistance to change thinking.
    I worked through Reynolds but couldn't find anything.
    Anybody know or have an idea?
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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

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    Legacy Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    I have read that one of the requirements for a rifle and its bayonet at the end of the 1800's was that an Infantry soldier must be able to bayonet mounted Cavalry.

    When the SMLE was designed as a compromise between an Infantry rifle and a carbine (upsetting everyone) but trying to standardise on manufacture and inventory, they had to design the 1907 'Sword bayonet' to be able to comply with the 'bayonet mounted cavalry' requirement.

    Doesn't answer your question tho';.
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

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    Legacy Member Mk VII's Avatar
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    More recoil, more muzzle blast and noise.

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    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    I would hazard a guess that harmonics, barrel vibration and "compensation" had something to do with it. Check the Textbook of Small Arms 1929
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

    Edward Bernays, 1928

    Much changes, much remains the same.

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    Legacy Member Bruce_in_Oz's Avatar
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    Remember that the "SMLE" was adopted with the Patt, '03 bayonet; i.e., a re-jigged Patt '88 bayonet. Thus the "assembly" was shorter than the L.E rifle with Patt '88 attached.

    This was deemed "too short" and the Patt '07 was introduced to increase "reach". The Patt '07, as originally introduced, is essentially a "clone" of the Japaneseicon Type 30 bayonet, hooked quillon and all.

    The idea of some Tommy bayoneting a cavalry horse that was being steered to run him down seems an example of a "final act of defiance". The impact of several hundred Kilograms of horse and rider striking the bayonet and rifle would be "interesting" to all concerned. A mortal wound from a Patt. '07 to the horse's heart would bring it down alright, probably on top of the "poker" and / or his neighbouring comrades.

    Sir Hiram Maxims little toys should have put an instant end to cavalry in its traditional role. The Frenchicon were still fielding Cuirassiers in late 1915; SHINY massed targets. The boffins invented the TANK and a handful of clever commanders developed combined-arms tactics in surprisingly short order. And then promptly went back to the "old ways" as soon as peace broke out.

    Speaking of the French, take a look at the overall length of a Lebel or Berthier rifle with their "issue" pig-stickers. A whole lot less handy in a trench fight than a SMLE with either the '03 or '07 blades fitted. Then there were the assorted knives, clubs axes, sharpened entrenching tools and grenades that really made the difference when it got "up close and personal" in a trench raid.

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    Legacy Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
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    IIRC barrel length was determined in 1900, bayonet length later. When generals with volley firing, massed and cavalry charges thinking were still alive and directing development.

    Eg when transitioning from the SMLE/No 1 to No 1 Mk V/VI/no 4, barrel length certainly must have been considered.

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    Legacy Member Bruce_in_Oz's Avatar
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    Bear also in mind that 1n 1903, the standard ball ammo was Mk Vl and the experts spent a LOT of effort on weird barrel lapping regimes to try to get the muzzle velocity from the shorter SMLE back up to that of the L. E. rifles.

    The advent of Mk Vll ball as a response to the Germanicon development of "S" ball with its lightweight spitzer bullet traveling at not much shy of 2900fps, threw lots of things out of the window. but picked up some bonus points: The Brits tried a "clone", of about 150grains weigh and, with a composite core. It lacked the required long-range performance in machine-guns, so they split the difference and the Mk Vll was born.

    In the SMLE, they had a lighter rifle, firing ammo that produced less recoil and bore wear in a shorter barrel. The actual barrel length, 25.2 inches,did not change from the SMLE, through all the trials and into the No4 series, thus the trajectory with Mk Vll ammo was a known commodity. Obviously, the No 5 is shorter, lighter, noisier etc, but it wasn't developed on a wild whim, rather, as a perceived requirement for a rifle that was a bit more suitable for use in "jungles", and for vehicle crews and troops throwing themselves out of aircraft.. Besides all that, the advent of "fire and movement" with a section MG (Lewis, BREN) had altered tactical thinking greatly.

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    Legacy Member GeeRam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz View Post
    Obviously, the No 5 is shorter, lighter, noisier etc, but it wasn't developed on a wild whim, rather, as a perceived requirement for a rifle that was a bit more suitable for use in "jungles", and for vehicle crews and troops throwing themselves out of aircraft.. Besides all that, the advent of "fire and movement" with a section MG (Lewis, BREN) had altered tactical thinking greatly.
    And the introduction in combat at the same time of the MP43/44 showed where the future was going to be with infantry battle rifles....which is why the No.5 got dropped as soon as they could.

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    Deceased August 31st, 2020 englishman_ca's Avatar
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    The long Lee had a barrel length of 30-1/4 inches, the cavalry carbine 20-3/4 inches.

    The length of the Sht.LE being pretty close to half way between the two.

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    Legacy Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
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    Makes sense for the later No, we know what we have, let's not fix what isn't broken. Still leaves the question of why that barrel length with the SMLE. Arbitrary half way between Long Lee and Carbine as Englishman proposes?

    While on this topic, the P14 had a slightly longer barrel... ?
    Last edited by Daan Kemp; 07-09-2020 at 10:15 AM. Reason: better wording

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