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Thread: Help Identify this Number 4 Mk. 2

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  1. #21
    Legacy Member davidwrankin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield View Post
    It says "FTR 195?"
    Sorry, should have made a circle:

    Attachment 110394

    There is some kind of mark in the finish in that area. It's clearer in person, but still not enough to tell anything definite. I may just be seeing things at this point...


    In the same private message, you also asked me about the markings out at the muzzle. Those are the IO Inc importer marks; the only thing interesting is that the importer calls the gun a No 4 Mk 1, which it obviously is not.

    To catch up on some other replies I was going to make last night, but wasn't able to hit send on before bed:

    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    Kentucky I thought was Scots-Irish territory, but I see on looking it was over 50% English; speaking of which you must have enjoyed "The Story of English" on PBS.
    My family can trace the Rankins to the Mairns Parish in the Paisley area of Scotland back to at least 1754; my ancestor was the first born and "son natural" (a polite way of saying "out of wedlock"... oops) of Arthur and Elspah/Elizabeth Bryson (records are gone before that). It was Milady who was of general English stock (albeit lower-class English stock) from eastern Kentucky.

    I need to watch The Story of English still. I personally like the analogy that each major change in English arises when English meets another new language and takes it into a back alley to beat it up for its lunch money and some favorite trinket or piece of clothing. And let's not even start trying to figure out the Great Vowel Shift....

    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    Would be worth checking the fit of the butt in the socket BTW.
    I'm lucky I don't have to replace the stock to shoot the gun. When the bolt is the least bit loose, the stock wobbles. When you're tightening the bolt, the stock thrashes from side to side like a drunken sailor. The fit is acceptable only when the bolt is 100% tight; the stock is straight, true, and only a small gap (paper thickness to knife blade width) remains between the receiver and the stock. I also need to acquire a bolt washer and lock washer for the buttstock bolt (and see if I can find the leather bottle protector, not sure where I put it....).

    The butt is also a Short, and I need a Long. I'll look to buy a Long for shooting purposes, and put the Short in the closet for storage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield View Post
    If it is a Mk2 then it would be an early 50's rifle (but the serial number does not stack up with that date) and it must have had a very hard life to require an FTR in '53

    Fazakerley
    BSA (FTR in 1953)
    Sold to India and scrubbed & new number during re-fit to make it a grenade rifle, eventually sold out of service
    Arrived in the USAicon
    You forgot the side-trip to Ethiopia, if RTI can be trusted at all.

    I just got Stratton's book on No 4s and No 5s, and the pictures in it helped me a lot to identify the various variations on the receivers/bodies. I even called in the resident expert: my daughter is a metal sculpture
    student at the University of Kentucky, and a really good welder/forger/metal worker. The trigger mounting bracket is a solid piece with the rest of the receiver, and not brazed or welded on. The gun is a Mk. 2.

    Could BSA have built A1828 in the 1953s FTR? Perhaps they grabbed a spare Fazakerley 51 body, a new barrel, and random furniture parts laying around, and put Frankenstein's monster together. I was going to even speculate that the bolt might be the original part, but it would seem silly that a 1942 Shirley bolt could survive if the receiver did not. Alternately, BSA could have picked the serial number A1828 because they had just parted the original A1828 out.

    If that's not likely, then it was built in 51, and needed an FTR by 53 (or BSA wanted the money for an FTR, and did it anway...).

    Either way, the rest of the history is :
    • It heads to India post-FTR
    • India has it some time, then FTRs it again and converts it to support the Rifle Grenade
    • They eventually muster it out of service, and it gets shipped to Ethiopia
    • It definitely gets shot in Ethiopia (I cleaned a LOT of fouling and copper out of that barrel)
    • Eventually RTI rescues it from the warehouse in Ethiopia
    • Number One Son pays too much money, and I have it now....

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  4. #22
    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidwrankin View Post
    I need to watch The Story of English still. I personally like the analogy that each major change in English arises when English meets another new language and takes it into a back alley to beat it up for its lunch money and some favorite trinket or piece of clothing. And let's not even start trying to figure out the Great Vowel Shift....
    And I always thought it was more a process of peaceful assimilation! Not in Appalachia eh?

    As for that old gun, the wood needs to come off and have a bath in linseed oilicon, "whether it needs it or not" as our ancestors used to say about bathing!
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

    Edward Bernays, 1928

    Much changes, much remains the same.

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  7. #23
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    I'm rather late to the party but have enjoyed reading this thread very much. I have read all of the posts systematically & was busting to mention that if it was a Mk1/2 conversion you would almost certainly see evidence of braze on the trigger mounting block where it fits up against the front of the butt socket.........but you figured that out already! If it is all in one piece, then you have a Mk2 body, 'from new'.

    The body/receiver is definitely of Faz manufacture. The giveaway is that in your video you give us a nice clear view of both draws (the downward projecting bosses on the underside of the receiver, to which the bolt release catch/mag release/sear are attached). The two draws are always symmetrical EXCEPT on Faz rifles, where one is contoured but the other left 'chunkier'. Long Branch left them both 'chunky' after switching to Mk1* production, & all UKicon factories except Faz contoured both draws, whereas Faz retained the shaped right hand draw only, to accommodate the bolt release catch plate. Sorry if that sounds a bit wordy, but just look at your draws & you'll see what I mean (sounds like a line from Compo to Nora Batty in 'Last of the Summer Wine', doesn't it?!).

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  9. #24
    Legacy Member davidwrankin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    And I always thought it was more a process of peaceful assimilation! Not in Appalachia eh?
    Finally found the original quote:
    the writer James Nicoll said, “The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a *CENSORED*. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and [rifle] their pockets for new vocabulary”
    80% of English words originate in other languages. It’s not in our tradition to ask nicely to borrow them....

    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    As for that old gun, the wood needs to come off and have a bath in linseed oilicon, "whether it needs it or not" as our ancestors used to say about bathing!
    I wanted to follow up with pictures of the old lady post-bath, but Amazon dropped the ball. The first bottle of raw linseed oilicon disappeared somewhere in Miami FL (I just don’t ask any more), and the second bottle didn’t get here until I was out of town last weekend. However, the furniture (including a New NOS “long” stock off FleaBay) just got done soaking up a third (or maybe fourth, I lose count) coat of oil a few minutes ago, and I intend to hit it again a couple of times tomorrow, and then keep hitting it a couple of times a day until the wood has its fill. Then I’ll come back with photos.

    The wood is already looking a lot healthier and richer.

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  11. #25
    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    I doubt any language ever did ask permission! The great thing about English is its ability to assimilate and create whatever is required. For power of expression and exactitude our language is unequalled; fortunately we have no equivalent to the Acadamie Francaise trying to hold us to some imaginary level of "purity". That said, the Frenchicon have far more respect for their own language and take far better care to use it properly than many native English speakers.

    Go down to your local recycling depot and you'll probably find people drop linseed oilicon off there regularly. Many seem to buy it with intentions to use it, but never do, or only a little out of the bottle. I must have 10 gallons by now, so much I've decanted it into 5 gallon jugs.

    Imperial gallons if course!
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

    Edward Bernays, 1928

    Much changes, much remains the same.

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  13. #26
    Legacy Member davidwrankin's Avatar
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    I mentioned that I'd post post-oiling pictures of the old lady. I've gotten it down to where most of the wood is barely absorbing oil on each hourly pass, especially on the inside pieces, so I feel comfortable with putting the rifle back together and oiling the outside.

    I was looking for a long stock, and I hit FleaBay up for a NOS Long Branch long stock. I took the pictures below with the Indian stock too, and I'm going to keep it handy and put it back on if/when this gets to be less of a shooter.

    I admit that I did get a bit buy-happy on Ebay and Amazon for optional accessories...
    Attachment 110710Attachment 110711 Attachment 110709Attachment 110708

    I'm hoping to go shooting this Sunday or next, and see if it will actually go boom or not.

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  15. #27
    Legacy Member Igor Polski's Avatar
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    Love this thread! Can't wait to see your rifle all cleaned up.

    Since Fazakerley started production of the No4 Mk2 in 1949 it is possible that yours saw service in Korea and needed an FTR by 1953.

    You make mention of a pair of "sevens" on the right side buttsocket...wonder if those could be a pair of broad arrow marks that weren't completely scrubbed at rebuild. My 8/49 Faz non FTR has a broad arrow in that general area.

    I recently saw a photo of a No4 Mk1 that was related to India that had been stamped "No4 Mk1" in the same place on the receiver as yours is stamped "No4 Mk2". Can't remember where I saw it but I likely have the site in bookmarks. I'll post the link when I find it.

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  17. #28
    Legacy Member Igor Polski's Avatar
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    Pretty rifle! The new buttstock actually looks like it belongs on there. Let us know how she shoots.

  18. #29
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    Yes, a nice looking old girl. I'd give her house room!

    I would also concur with Igor's comments re the re-stamping (generally crudely, by hand, using individual stamps) of the 'No4 Mk1' marking seen on many Indian No4's (but generally not those linished & converted to Mk2 specs). The stamping on the OP's rifle looks just the same in style & size, so I wonder if they did indeed mark up some Mk2's in the same way?

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  20. #30
    Legacy Member davidwrankin's Avatar
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    I finally got to take the old lady out to the range, and I even played a little bit with the SloMo on the iPhone:



    The accuracy is incredible, and the chamber/headspacing is excellent too (very little case stretching). I'm going to keep playing with TrailBoss loads, to see if I can get something that I can play with at 100 yards, but I'll also run up a lightweight "full power" load for a couple of hundred yards, just for play.

    Thanks for the help everyone.

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