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    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    m1903a1 tryout results

    I've posted in some other threads about a recently acquired 1903 with 12/1942 serial number, 5-1942 SA replacement barrel, and wearing a new CMPicon c-stock. When I got it, the front action screw tip had broken off down in the recoil lug. I got it out, replaced, and went shooting the other day. Here are my results, and issues I identified at the range.
    1. after a couple fouling shots to get on paper, I put an SR-1 target black on a regular sheet of paper at 100yds. I put 7/10 shots in the 10 ring, 4x's, 2 in the 9, and one flyer in the white. 10 ring is 3.35", and x ring is 1.35". I shot off a bench with front rest at my indoor range. I used the small peep, and found it difficult to focus on the front sight in the indoor lighting. I can see the aiming black clearly with the larger M1icon rear sight, and my 1903a3 sight, but in this case I just tried my best to center on the white page.
    2. The milled follower gets stuck at back. After lots of reading here, and measuring against my other m1903, the gap between magazine and receiver is about 0.050 too big. Also, the forearm at the rear barrel band is too fat and clearly noticeable as the barrel band appears stretched when it's on. I conclude the stock was probably on fitted minimally, if at all. Jerro's inletting black is on its way, and I'll be following up with lots of questions for the experts here. Although, I could just see if a thicker stamped A3 follower works, and call it a day since it seems to shoot fine as is. But I'd rather make it better and learn a new skill.
    3. Many rounds chambered tight, and 1 not at all...although it chambered fine in my other 1903. These were handloads of mixed brass, full length sized and trimmed to the trim-to length in my Hornady manual. I did a field-expedient headspace check before firing with a live factory round (Hornady match 168) round (no firing pin) as a go-gauge, and added a piece of aluminum tape (0.003 thick) to the end as a no-go. Bolt closed easily on the go, but not on the no go. I inspected with my bore cam and there is some chatter on where the shoulder is cut. everything else is pristine. I suppose I should just rent a pull through reamer and lightly "chase" the chamber? If it's not the shoulder, then maybe the neck isn't long enough? First step is to probably rent or buy a set of real gauges first.
    Here are some pics of the throat, shoulder with some what looks life some rough chattering, and the rifling just immediately in front of the throat.
    Attachment 110892Attachment 110893Attachment 110894
    EDIT: A better picture of the shoulder.
    Attachment 110895
    Information
    Warning: This is a relatively older thread
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    Last edited by ssgross; 12-11-2020 at 02:43 PM. Reason: barrel month is 5, not 9, after a good cleaning

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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    So if the hornady 168gn match round chambered easilly and your reloads a TTL, FLS'ed didn't then the tightness may be the projectiles are seated just that bit to long for that chamber the Ogive may be contacting the lede of the rifling I would say bump them back 5 thou and try a dummy one till it chambers easilly and load it to that spec for that rifle.
    If the neck was to short then when you cammed the bolt down you'd squish the neck into the projie setting yourself up for some nasty pressures, so I would try a dummy round made to your old spec and go from there rather than chasing out the chamber neck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ssgross View Post
    I suppose I should just rent a pull through reamer and lightly "chase" the chamber?
    I'd stay away with reamers, try a paper polish first. Use a mandrel made of wood dowel with a slot cut for machine paper with oil on it. Try turning it with a low speed drill and in and out. That should remove any offending chatter marks. It doesn't take much.
    Regards, Jim

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    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    So I've been measuring all morning.
    The rounds I was shooting were Hornady 150 SP with mixed brass (I got 1k of them a few years ago with rebates, and use them to get on paper or any other just for funnies shooting). I shoot these with low-powered loads to account for the variance in case thicknesses amongst mixed brass.
    I just loaded a bunch more, took out the firing pin, and selected one that does not chamber at all - there was variance in my lot even though all were trimmed to same length and full length sized.
    I measured the max case base to ogive (CBTO) with my Hornady gauge and one of these bullets - 2.676. My handholds are seated to the middle of the cannelure on these bullets at 2.620. Plenty of room.
    Then I sorted the 100+ rounds I loaded into 3 piles - smooth chambering, sticky, and no go's. The dozen or so no-go's were all military brass (LC), and a couple greek HXP's - including the one I tested.
    Next, I FL sized both test cases - one was RP (chambers fine) the other HXP, and started measuring the neck. Indeed, the HXP case is 2 thousandths wider at the neck - pretty normal as military brass is thicker. I colored the case with a sharpie and chambered - the neck is not the issue. The contact is all on the shoulder. I measured all other parts of the case and they are the same. The only thing I can't measure effectively is the shoulder itself - which must be the issue by elimination.
    I then took a brand new piece of never-fired Hornady brass, and FL sized it and it chambers fine. Something is screwey. I worked the HXP case in and out of the FL die about a half a dozen times out of pure frustration, and WALLA! case chambers just fine - a little sticky, but just fine.
    I guess my lesson learned is that the chamber on my 1903 is very, very tight at the depth of the shoulder - I tested the above cases in all my other 30-06 rifles and they all chamber fine with no noticeable difference.
    The "problem" could be the chatter where the shoulder was cut - seen in my picture above, or it could be that the chamber was not reamed deep enough - or maybe the barrel was installed and never reamed, and I got lucky - it is after all a SA replacement barrel.
    Next step is to get proper gauges and make sure there is no tightness on the go gauge. Depending on those results, I'll either need to simply polish like BAR suggests, or if it's worse I'll need to finish ream it.
    I'll order some gauges - inletting black is on the way anyway, and report back. I have a hunch that this one was assembled and sold, with fitting or other work completed. I feel privileged in that case since I get to do all the final fitting myself and have a very nice shooter at the end of it!

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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    You could take the FLS die down a fraction and I do mean a fraction of and inch say 1or 2 thou just enough so it will act like a body die to bump the shoulder down a fraction as thats all it needs or get a body die and set it up its a bit painful I use them on my 308 and 6.5 x 284 so I get the same consitent resistance to the bolt closing on every round. But be wary with the FLS die to far down and you'll munt the cases myself having never done that a few times!

    Apart from that as Jim suggests slow as you go with his suggestion.
    Last edited by CINDERS; 09-08-2020 at 05:18 AM.

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    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    I think maybe maybe I can screw my die in a tad more. It's a Hornady die, on a Hornady iron press. Their instructions is to screw down until it "touches" the shell holder. The RCBS FLS dies I have all say to go 1/8-1/4 turn further or until there is a nice caming action. Barely any cam at all so maybe the "bad" cases are hanging at the base - that is the base of the case is slightly too big - not sized all the way - to fit in the base of the chamber.
    thanks, CINDERS - Being that I did get that case to fit snuggly in the chamber without force means my sizing ritual is likely the culprit, and I should work hard to confirm and rectify that before I stick anything in the chamber. After all...it really did shoot very well as is, and is only going to get better once I play with and complete the stock fitting. Jerow's just came in the mail - along with a box of a few hundreds of 30-40 krag brass (another thread), and a new mag spring for this rifle.
    The new mag spring solved the "back end of the follower getting stuck" issue completely. But now, single feeding (cutoff in "off") on an empty magazine is impossible the round's nose heads straight for the right side, and runs into the flat of the barrel, instead of slipping off and into the chamber I feel this will be fixed with proper stock fitting. If not, maybe I need to adjust or file the top of the follower. Watching it as the bolt slides over, the nose of the follower "tips" down, which causes the round to slip into the chamber. On my follower, the "nose-tipping" happens too late - even on a short 150 SP round.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ssgross View Post
    The RCBS FLS dies I have all say to go 1/8-1/4 turn further or until there is a nice caming action.
    I would agree and if you asked me to set you up it would be this way regardless of manufacture. Some guys freak at the idea of the die touching the shell holder but I don't see a way of not doing it and sizing through the flex that comes with sizing... That could be the problem.
    Regards, Jim

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    Its more like the die is not bumping the shoulder back, you can set an FLS die up so it acts as a body die but its a fair bit of jiggling around to get it correct don't ask thats why I brought body dies anyway as an experiment grab some old cases and play till the empty chambers nicely but heres the catch. Start with the FLS just touching the shell holder and when you do resize ensure you do not short stroke it flull throw every time and little adjustments, what I did to my lock and load hornady press on the FLS station I center popped 8 points equally so the adjustment are either an 8th or 16th by going in between the marks.

    All brass is not equal so go with the ones that last the longest and use that as the base because some *brass have thicker necks and so on and stick to that brass as once the die is set up it should theoretically never change but yeah start with the die before buying the Hornady gauges yeah I have all of them as well don't ask why just OCD at building the best ammo I can for 1/2MOA cartridges
    Last edited by CINDERS; 09-09-2020 at 09:14 AM.

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    Legacy Member rugersworld's Avatar
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    Get a redding body die.
    Get the hornady case comparator gauges that let you measure a reference point on the case shoulder.
    Get a feeler gauge so you can set an accurate distance between the bottom of the die and the top of the shell holder when the ram is brought up.
    Sort all that brass by head stamp and you can then even sort by weight.

    I have been down this same road with a new criterion barrel. I have RCBS FL dies and they are tricky to get an accurate full length size with a shoulder bump. The redding die can be used without having to make sure the case is trimmed to correct length first as I discovered with my RCBS die.
    I bought over 350 "once fired" FC cases and had very differing full sized length issues until I sorted them by weight. I ran some cases into the chamber to check fit and separated them by easily chambered, resistance, and not chambering. Them I measured them with the comparator gauge to see the differences in the shoulder lengths. The body die was set up with the feeler gauge to bump the right amount of shoulder and cases were checked in the chamber again, then trimmed when they were right. Now I have zero issues with the batch of cases for this rifle. oh, and the case head to shoulder measurement of a fired case was not much shorter than my 03a3 or 1903 that chamber fine, maybe .002-.003.

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    Legacy Member El Woodman's Avatar
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    Sticky m1903 follower

    You might want to check your followe for markings...If there is an "E", "R", or a "W", your follower is from a m1917 rifle...Had one syick on me before...

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