USMC M1 Carbines in the Pacific

[painter777]

By far, most of the U.S. troopies had never seen a real firearm before being in the military. The idea of the U.S. being a "nation of riflemen" is a myth.

Again more Off Topic BS...
Someone should have told Admiral Yamamoto about the myth.
If you can understand them here are some facts for you.

Civilian Gun Ownership In The 1940’s,

United States long gun ownership was about as common as it is today. However, remember that the United States population was approximately 140 million, with just under 45 million families.
While most heads of families had at least a .22, a shotgun and a “deer rifle,” and it was common practice for other family members to own one or more long guns.

Judging by surviving examples, there were approximately 220 million long guns in circulation, indicating approximately five long guns per household.
More realistically, a typical household either had no long guns or somewhere between six and eight.

Again judging by surviving examples and the observed “mortality rate,” there were some sixty million handguns in private citizens hands.

To Sum it up:

US Population: ~140 million
Households: ~45 million families
Long guns in circulation: ~220 million approximately five long guns per household
Hand Guns: ~60 million owned by private citizens
Population of 140 million with under 45 million families
Total Est Arms: 280 million

More factors:
PROFILE OF US SERVICEMEN (1941-1945)
38.8% (6,332,000) of U.S. servicemen and all servicewomen were volunteers
61.2% (11,535,000) were draftees
Overseas service: 73% served overseas
Total Served: 17,867,000
Non-combat jobs: 38.8% of enlisted personnel had rear echelon assignments—administrative, support, or manual labor.

I would assume some 'Troopies' not chosen to be a rifleman, may have other skills best used in a rear echelon position. Such as a Doctor, Surgeon, Intelligence.. etc.

Maybe the letter Admiral Yamamoto sent to Ryoichi Sasakawa best sums up the situation in mainland America:
"To invade the United States would prove most difficult because behind every blade of grass is an American with a rifle."

England had banned all guns, and gun ownership by the populace; years prior to the pending invasion of their mainland by Germany.
The United States had to provide guns, weapons and support in World War II to England in part because of that ban.

My local Rifle club was established roughly pre~1917 to promote shooting for citizens, servicemen and even boy scouts.

DCM: The Office of the Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) was created by the U.S. Congress as part of the 1903 War Department Appropriations Act. The original purpose was to provide civilians an opportunity to learn and practice marksmanship skills so they would be skilled marksmen if later called on to serve in the U.S. military.

NRA: After being granted a charter by the state of New York on November 17, 1871, the NRA was founded. The NRA's interest in promoting the shooting sports among America's youth began in 1903 when NRA Secretary Albert S. Jones urged the establishment of rifle clubs at all major colleges, universities and military academies. By 1906, NRA's youth program was in full swing.

Shooting at the Summer Olympics: Started in 1896.

Figure in the private shooting clubs, college, high school, 4h, boy scouts... etc. There were hundreds if not thousands of shooting organizations prior to WWI and WWII.

Hunting:
And while our 'Troopies' were away, during July of 1941 to June 1942 there were enough gun toting Americans that spent $15,359,194.00 million on State Deer hunting Licenses and Federal Duck stamps fees. This from DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE report for the 1941-42 season.
During the 1941-1942 Michigan Deer hunting season nearly 850,000 licenses were sold. While the States population was 5,472,000 million.
So 15.5 % of Michigan residents were hunting deer with their 850,000 Deer rifles !

I don't believe they were all throwing rocks.

https://www.fws.gov/news/Historic/Ne.../19430731b.pdf

So Sunray chew on this a while and throw back some facts, not some Troll like reply.

[browningautorifle]

So Sunray chew on this a while and throw back some facts, not some Troll like reply.

It's what he does though...and that's all.

[lemaymiami]

An outstanding review of the actual history involved.... Thanks Painter....

I'm the kind of guy who reviews incoming assertions then simply disregards stuff I doubt is true... All of us ought to speak up when nonsense comes down the road.

[AFJon]

"...many men during WW2 hunted at home..." By far, most of the U.S. troopies had never seen a real firearm before being in the military. The idea of the U.S. being a "nation of riflemen" is a myth.

Gee, ever wonder why you got yourself banned on the CMP forum?

[firstflabn]

Would be nice to have something resembling a source to support such a detailed series of claims. Where did the numbers come from?

[painter777]

Would be nice to have something resembling a source to support such a detailed series of claims. Where did the numbers come from?

Hello Firstflabn,
I assume you're directing this question to me.
I thought about you while putting this together and wishing I had your research abilities.

For the population and households I used the US Census report of 1940 and added the yearly estimated growth to when we entered WWII. The 1940 Census released in April 1 1940 was resident population of the United States to be 132,164,569. By 1942 counting immigrants rounded out to be near ~140,000,000. But the charts varied between 135 mil - 139 mil and I didn't attempt to calculate their + or - %.
1940 United States Census - Wikipedia.

For number of arms I used just a simple search pulling info posted that had no links to 'Hard numbers'.
I tried to use an average from a few of these reports. Most I pulled from this link:
Gun Ownership In The 1940s Alley

For the breakdown of US Service men and Women I used the numbers posted by The National WWII Museum (New Orleans)
Research Starters: US Military by the Numbers | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

You can easily find the start of the DCM, NRA and 1st Summer Olympic Games with a google search.

The Hunting licenses and fees came from the DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE report for the 1941-42 season.
https://www.fws.gov/news/Historic/Ne.../19430731b.pdf

"By far, most of the U.S. troopies had never seen a real firearm before being in the military. The idea of the U.S. being a "nation of riflemen" is a myth."

I believe the fact that over 8,5 million purchased Deer hunting licenses and over 1,4 million purchased Duck stamps for the 41-42 season is in itself enough proof that the above statement is false. Those that 'Purchased', I assume most know that poachers don't buy a license.

I also didn't attempt to pull numbers from the Firearms ordered thru mail order catalogs. Just too hard to find let alone tally.

Ch-P777

[painter777]

To Add:
Numbers seems to vary.
But if 16 - 18 million served from the US in WWII,
Then figure in the % of the 8.5 million deer hunters and 1,4 million duck hunters from 1 season.

[Daan Kemp]

Possibly most of the duck hunters are also deer hunters?

[painter777]

Possibly most of the duck hunters are also deer hunters?

Hi Daan,
Perhaps.

Point I was trying to make is there were 8,5 million (licensed) US Deer hunters just during the 41-42 season.
Near 50% of the estimated total of 16 - 18 million (includes Women) that served in the US WWII effort.

If one could put the numbers together that accounted for anyone using arms in the 40's like large and small game hunters, subsistence hunters, competition-pleasure shooters, law enforcement (Federal, State, County, local), personal defense, and criminals.
I believe the total would surpass the number of Servicemen enough to make that statement about "most of the U.S. troopies had never seen a real firearm before being in the military" Just another ridiculous statement.

FWIW

[firstflabn]

Hello Firstflabn,
I assume you're directing this question to me.
I thought about you while putting this together and wishing I had your research abilities.

Thanks, Charlie. I was all ready to pounce if you said Wikipedia.

Your total number of firearms looked suspect, so I poked around and found this estimate by Gary Kleck. With Kleck's reputation, I would take his numbers over anybody in the country, especially "some guy" on the internet.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/how-many-guns-are-there-in-america/"]How Many Guns Are There in America? - The Truth About Guns[/url]

Tactically, I would suggest the combination of previous firearms experience plus stateside training - both concentrating on firing at identified individual targets - was a net negative in WWII. The reports are legion about the lack of area firing (and that's with leaving out fraudster SLA Marshall).

The Army gathered enormous amounts of data during WWII, but I've not run across any attempt to compare prewar firearms experience with effectiveness.

The rifle company had the dirtiest of dirty jobs, but it wasn't the whole war. Riflemen took the highest losses, but were only about one third of a rifle company, less than one fourth of an infantry battalion. A Dec 44 12th Army Group report indicates around 10% of that force of 800k was composed of Riflemen.