Very early scopes on the Martini and Enfield rifles

[Strangely Brown]

Surpmil, Roger,

Do either of these scopes have a minute of angle scale on them; if so what does it go to?

[Surpmil]

Yes, that's a good question what the graduations actually are. As mine is missing the "base" which had half the elevation vernier I can't say much, but Roger's clearly has as many as 12 regular graduations on the elevation.

Having seen references to these sights being used at extreme ranges "back in the day", perhaps that suggests a 2400 yard maximum elevation, but I suspect the windage screw may also be just some arbitrary interval decided on by the pitch of the screw and the whim of the maker.

One says "Fitted by Alex. Henry...." and the other does not, so that implies that he was not the maker of at least that scope, if not both. Who then?

Dr. Common, Daniel Fraser...??

[Daan Kemp]

a 2400 yard maximum elevation

Very optimistic distance given the lenses available at that time. And the equipment.

[Strangely Brown]

Very optimistic distance given the lenses available at that time. And the equipment.

A brief look through my 1908 Bisley Bible, (complete with original pencil!) shows the maximum distance for Match Rifle as 1100 yards with all other distances listed as 800, 900 and 1000.
I suspect the 1200 yard firing point for Bisley was yet to be built.

[Surpmil]

I don't think the reference I saw was to Bisley particularly; I will see if I have it saved somewhere. Col. Davidson's memoir that might shed some light on this: Memoirs of a Long Life : Sir David Davidson : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

There was some agitation in the early 1890s, apparently chiefly by a C. F. Lowe for a special NRA competition for telescopic sights, but this was not accepted by the leadership of the NRA at the time.

Mr. Lowe seems to have made a study of the subject as this clipping shows. (to follow)

[Roger Payne]

Gents, I must confess that after having bought this scope about ten years ago because I thought it was historically significant & not too expensive, I have not paid it a great deal of attention. However, I've tried to get a few more photo's in an attempt to show range markings. I really know little about it & can only guess as to who was the designer..........Dr Commons maybe???

[Surpmil]

There it is in the third photo: graduated up to 1000 yards. The markings on the right hand side are a bit curious: what might be the point of engraving 800, 900 and 1000 on both sides?

I've tried to brighten up that photo; are the numbers actually 800 and so on, or 80, 90 and 100?

[Roger Payne]

800, 900, 1000 - marked the same on both parts. There is also a scale; 0, 10, 20, 30............90, 100 on the rear edge of the movable piece, which butts up to another scale on the rear face of the piece attached by the two screws! Youmay be able to see it in the fourth photograph in post number 16.

Just been playing about with it, & by slackening of the thumb screw on the bottom, the plates fit together snugly & the adjustment is then effected by further screwing or unscrewing of the thumb wheel at the bottom. Obviously, when on a rifle, the plates are also held together by the shaped piece to fit in the safety/volley sight notch & by the bolt & wing clamp fitment.

I think.

[Strangely Brown]

The lack of an 1100 yard mark may give a slight indication to the age of the scope.

The longest range at Wimbledon was 1000 yards; when the NRA moved to Bisley in 1888/89 they enjoyed the longer distance of 1100 yards. I need to do some more research to establish when the 1200 firing point was built at Bisley.

[Promo]

This mount design and function to adjust the scope is very similar to the design Voigtländer used for the scopes they sold to Norway to be issued on Krag 1894 rifles at around the 1910 period (they were really optimistic, with a range up to 2200!).