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Thread: My first SHTLE MKIII.

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  1. #21
    Legacy Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
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    Might have been done in South Africa when these rifles were refurbished. We have experts for the SA refurbishment that might be able to provide more information.

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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #22
    Legacy Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    That's an Old Soldier Sahib!

    I've got one the same from the same year that had an FTR in '32 IIRC.

    The "Z" on the Nock's Form is probably a sentencing mark; I forget whether it's "BLR" or "BER": "Beyond Local Repair/Beyond Economic Repair". In other words, repair or disposal.

    (The use of "economic" might throw some of us North Americans: "economical" is more our usage.)

    Edit: I see that had already been mentioned by Alan d'Enfield.
    Yes,
    ZF is condemmed but repairable by the original factory.
    BER is another 'mark' meaning 'Beyond Economical repair' (financially cheaper to scrap and issue a new rifle.

    Z is condemmed and not repairable by even the original factory, It should not be rebuilt and made into a live firearm as people better qualified that we have declared it unsafe & unrepairable.


    An old post from 2008 by Peter Laidlericon

    The short answer to this is that the ZF marking to an Armourer means that this is the end of the line.

    The Z means that it has been condemned at a Base workshop (that's the Z bit) as suitable only for a Factory Repair (that's the F part). This will indicate something to do with a part that cannot be rectified at Base Workshop and that is inevitably a damaged body. On a No4 rifle, this is what we call 'the master component', a part that is NEVER supplied as a spare part through the Ordnance channels.

    There was only one other mark that was more extreme than ZF and that was ZF-BER. Which meant that in addition to the ZF, one of the examiners had decreed it to be beyond economic repair in any case. But effectively, both were the same......................

    There was a milder Z-BER which indicated that it wasn't even worth sending to the factory and at workshops, these were torched!

    So, the rifle your correspondent is referring to falls into one of three categories
    1) scrap
    2) very scrap
    3) Extremely scrap
    Last edited by Alan de Enfield; 11-23-2020 at 03:18 AM.
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

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  5. #23
    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield View Post
    Yes,
    ZF is condemmed but repairable by the original factory.
    BER is another 'mark' meaning 'Beyond Economical repair' (financially cheaper to scrap and issue a new rifle.

    Z is condemmed and not repairable by even the original factory, It should not be rebuilt and made into a live firearm as people better qualified that we have declared it unsafe & unrepairable.


    An old post from 2008 by Peter Laidlericon

    The short answer to this is that the ZF marking to an Armourer means that this is the end of the line.

    The Z means that it has been condemned at a Base workshop (that's the Z bit) as suitable only for a Factory Repair (that's the F part). This will indicate something to do with a part that cannot be rectified at Base Workshop and that is inevitably a damaged body. On a No4 rifle, this is what we call 'the master component', a part that is NEVER supplied as a spare part through the Ordnance channels.

    There was only one other mark that was more extreme than ZF and that was ZF-BER. Which meant that in addition to the ZF, one of the examiners had decreed it to be beyond economic repair in any case. But effectively, both were the same......................

    There was a milder Z-BER which indicated that it wasn't even worth sending to the factory and at workshops, these were torched!

    So, the rifle your correspondent is referring to falls into one of three categories
    1) scrap
    2) very scrap
    3) Extremely scrap
    And assuming that the marks and associated standards and practices over the years have not changed - as this rifle was probably sentenced just after WWII I would think - then what do we have?

    A rifle that was reproofed before being sold as surplus and used in a civilian context for a couple more generations.

    Conclusion: probably sentenced for excessive body wear and inability to headspace on whatever the standard was for the No.1 Rifle at the time.

    But I'm not sure that makes sense either as from Peter has told us, at least in regard to the No4 Rifle, there was no cure for inability to headspace on a No2 bolthead (of the proper length!), even at "the factory", so why would such a rifle be marked "Z" as though it could be repaired, when it could not even at a "factory"?

    We know from Peter IIRC, that relaxation of the headspacing standard was at least considered, which would only have been the case if safety was not an issue. As I recall Peter's remarks were that a rifle that would not headspace on the standard was simply considered not to have sufficient life left to justify the cost of overhaul.

    Unsafe? I doubt it.
    Last edited by Surpmil; 11-23-2020 at 10:07 PM.
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

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    Much changes, much remains the same.

  6. #24
    Legacy Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    But I'm not sure that makes sense either as from Peter has told us, at least in regard to the No4 Rifle, there was no cure for inability to headspace on a No2 bolthead (of the proper length!), even at "the factory", so why would such a rifle be marked "Z" as though it could be repaired, when it could not even at a "factory"?
    As I understand it Z (alone) was condemmed as not repairable by base workshops OR the factory, whilst ZF was unable to be repaired at base workshops but could be repaired by the manufacturer.
    "Simple" headspace that could be rectified by changing a bolt head could be done at base workshop level ( if not a lower level) so would not warrant Z or ZF.
    All bolt heads for the No1 Mk3 were manufactured oversize and had to be ground down to fit.



    On the subject of No4 bolt heads, a number 3 bolt head could be fitted if OK'd by a senior armourer.

    From Peter :

    There is a little more you might need to understand before you can appreciate the whole picture. The No4 rifle was a very precisely made piece of gear. The very fine production tolerances achievable meant that every rifle could be assembled with any parts from production within set tolerances and be correct for headspace with either a No0 or a No1 bolt head fitted. To leave the factory, that was between .064" and .068" headspace. If a rifle failed headspace in service (failed the "field" gauge at .074") Then it was sent back for repair. If it could be headspaced with the next size bolt head (either a 1 to replace a 0, or a 2 to replace a 1) it was deemed good to go. If a rifle did not pass headspace with a No2 bolt head, then it was passed up the line to the senior inspector who would apply the Gauge, Inspectors, Selected Breach Bolt. If the receiver passed the test, it could be fitted with a No3 bolt head and put back into service.
    NOTE HERE. A NO3 BOLT HEAD WAS ONLY TO BE USED ON THE SAY SO OF THE SENIOR INSPECTOR.
    If it did not pass the test, it would have been sentenced Z for return to the factory, (even if a No3 bolt head would pass headspace)

    Interestingly, I wonder how many rifles are out there with No3 bolt heads in them that the owners have fitted to keep them in heasdspace, when actually the receivers may be worn beyond reasonable limits.

    Also I wonder about the amount of rabid buying in the past of number3 bolt heads and the owners who have fitted them because their rifles failed the SAAMI spec field gauge at .070", which is a good .004" below the manufacturers spec..
    .
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

  7. #25
    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    So you would agree that the rifle was proofed after leaving military service and is therefore likely to be safe to shoot?
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

    Edward Bernays, 1928

    Much changes, much remains the same.

  8. #26
    Contributing Member Jay2020's Avatar
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    Getting excited. New barrel will be installed and sent home. Keeping the old barrel as I quest to interpret it. Everything else is ready. Hope to get off first shot before snow gets deep. This will be second gunsmith to give it thumps up.

  9. #27
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay2020 View Post
    This will be second gunsmith to give it thumps up.
    OK, but they are just gunsmiths' and don't know anything about the original spec. They just look at it and apply a headspace gauge. You might be OK or who knows? That's the thing that keeps most of us away is the unknown of the original BER or ZF as applicable. Specially if we have a background of issue and use of military rifles or machine guns. We know there are "Things"...

    Since the military didn't choose to cut these with a flame axe they remain. Now they are destroyed completely so no issues will arise in years to come.
    Regards, Jim

  10. #28
    Legacy Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by browningautorifleicon View Post
    We know there are "Things"...
    Penultimate sentence in a long post by Peter Laidlericon about DP, Z, ZF, BER etc :


    I’ve been an Armourer for a couple of years and while I or your local gunsmith could examine one and give it a bright clean bill of health, would YOU trust it. NO, I wouldn’t either!
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

  11. #29
    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Always wise to be cautious, and wiser to listen to the voices of experience, but one is still free to think for oneself.

    Without hearing Peter's opinion on this particular rifle, I wouldn't know what he would say, but was the rifle proofed after leaving military service or not?
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

    Edward Bernays, 1928

    Much changes, much remains the same.

  12. #30
    Contributing Member Jay2020's Avatar
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    See how would you know?

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