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  1. #61
    Legacy Member husk's Avatar
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    Savage T

    1941 - Scope-less, OC3XX, No markings of any kind on either side of bolt way.
    1942- Scope -less, OC33XX, On RHS is the letter P and below that the number 1 in a circle.

    Both retain their original Savage barrels.

    Hope this helps.

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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #62
    Contributing Member Micheal Doyne's Avatar
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    Thanks very much, I will add them to the register.

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  5. #63
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    savage no4 t

    savage us property marked 1942 ser 15C6098 front pad missing ,sporterized .parker hale pads fitted a20 front, ba21 rear.no inspectors marks on top of wrist .guessing scoopless has brit barrelAttachment 117005Attachment 117006Attachment 117007Attachment 117008
    Last edited by paul87buick; 04-29-2021 at 03:02 PM.

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    savage no4 t scopless

    Attachment 117009Attachment 117010Attachment 117011Attachment 117012Savage Scopless 13C7248 both original pads missing brit barrel
    Last edited by paul87buick; 04-29-2021 at 03:01 PM.

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    Legacy Member paul87buick's Avatar
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    Savage Scopless

    Savage Scopless 13C7248 both original pads missing brit barrel Attachment 117013 redid with better picture
    Last edited by paul87buick; 04-29-2021 at 03:02 PM.

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    savage no4 t differences

    13C7248 is Is a no4 mk1* gun with the bolt cut out yet 15C6098 is a later gun but it is a no4 mk1 gun with a bolt release catch . I find this interesting why would a later gun have a bolt release catch

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    Legacy Member Scouser (T)'s Avatar
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    Hi folks,

    I'm a newby so apologies if this isn't quite the correct area. I have found what I believe to be a Savage No.4 Mk1* (T) Less Scope. It has what appears to be an original No.32 Mk3 scope and mount with it. I have pictures if required. I'm based in the UKicon and wondered (obviously approximately) what value this 'rig' may be. It's in beautiful condition and the serial number is in the 13C range. Any help/guidance would be welcome. It's an interesting piece, but I don't want to pay scoped T prices for it.

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    Contributing Member Seaforth72's Avatar
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    The 13Cxxxx rifle is amongst certainly not a sniper rifle as Scouser (T) stated.

    Look for a scope serial number on the top of the stock, just below the cocking piece. If that is not there, and the butt has the Holland & Holland wartime code of “S51” on the underside, then the rifle is almost certainly a (T. LESS TELESCOPE) variant. These rifles were partially converted and most appear to have then been put straight into storage “for the duration”. Later they were sold surplus, sometimes in a No.15 Mk.I transit chest with the added marking (T. LESS TELESCOPE) on the front of the chest. Most of these rifles are found in near mint condition. They are not common, but some estimates are that about 3,000 of these rifles, which had been selected for conversion to sniper equipment, were left unfinished. Why? I do not know for sure, but the Britishicon obviously made a decision to standardize, using BSA Shirley made rifles, rather than having H&H have to deal with variations that stemmed from receiving rifles made by several different manufacturers. I speculate that H&H lobbied for one consistent supplier. Some 1944-1945 BSA made rifles are also No.4 Mk. (T. LESS TELESCOPE), but that is because they were unfinished at the time the contact ended, or else they had been rejected.

    Another sign to look for is a “T” marking, with serifs, on the left side of the body. Early conversions did not always have this marking and it has been reported that some had it added retroactively in service. Naturally one does not want to be fooled by such a marking that might have been added after the rifle left military service to increase the sale price.

    Genuine Stevens-Savage sniper rifles are rare, usually in the very low serial number range. One comes across these unfinished conversions much more frequently. When the serial number is in the 13Cxxxx range, one is pretty much guaranteed that it is an unfinished conversion.

    The (T. LESS TELESCOPE) rifles are the easiest to fake as sniper rifles, since much of the conversion work had already been done by H&H i.e. cheek rest added, battle sight removed and scope pads fitted. As a result the presence, or not, of a matching No.32 scope/bracket/No.8 scope case, scooe serial number on wrist of butt and possibly a “T” marking are all features that need to be examined very closely.

    The Stevens-Savage sniper rifles were fitted with No.32 Mk. I scopes. If the rifle went through Factory Thorough Repair (F.T.R.) for example, it might well receive a newer model scope in which case the old scope number would be cancelled on the butt and a new scope number added. As well, the bracket would normally have the rifle serial number stamped into the left side. One could expect such a rifle to have been well used. If it had new wood fitted, that wood would not likely have all been Stevens-Savage wood, but rather could be from any of the suppliers. The front scope pad on a well used one would likely have several stake marks per front pad screw, indicating heavy usage. The Imperial War Museum has a Stevens-Savage L42A1, presumably with the L1A1 conversion of a No.32 Mk.3 scope. They could not tell me the serial number however as they had not bothered to record that when they catalogued the rifle! Also it was on display, so it was not easily accessible.

    Popping on an orphaned scope and bracket makes it look just like a sniper rifle, which is great if the set-up is cheap, but that does not mean that it ever was a real sniper rifle. Spending a lot of money on this would not be recommended unless the rifle was carefully examined and vetted by a very knowledgeable person such as Roger Payneicon.
    Last edited by Seaforth72; 07-20-2021 at 11:52 AM.

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  12. #69
    Advisory Panel Lee Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seaforth72 View Post
    The 13Cxxxx rifle is amongst certainly not a sniper rifle as Scouser (T) stated.

    Look for a scope serial number on the top of the stock, just below the cocking piece. If that is not there, and the butt has the Holland & Holland wartime code of “S51” on the underside, then the rifle is almost certainly a (T. LESS TELESCOPE) variant. These rifles were partially converted and most appear to have then been put straight into storage “for the duration”. Later they were sold surplus, sometimes in a No.15 Mk.I transit chest with the added marking (T. LESS TELESCOPE) on the front of the chest. Most of these rifles are found in near mint condition. They are not common, but some estimates are that about 3,000 of these rifles, which had been selected for conversion to sniper equipment, were left unfinished. Why? I do not know for sure, but the Britishicon obviously made a decision to standardize, using BSA Shirley made rifles, rather than having H&H have to deal with variations that stemmed from receiving rifles made by several different manufacturers. I speculate that H&H lobbied for one consistent supplier. Some 1944-1945 BSA made rifles are also No.4 Mk. (T. LESS TELESCOPE), but that is because they were unfinished at the time the contact ended, or else they had been rejected.

    Another sign to look for is a “T” marking, with serifs, on the left side of the body. Early conversions did not always have this marking and it has been reported that some had it added retroactively in service. Naturally one does not want to be fooled by such a marking that might have been added after the rifle left military service to increase the sale price.

    Genuine Stevens-Savage sniper rifles are rare, usually in the very low serial number range. One comes across these unfinished conversions much more frequently. When the serial number is in the 13Cxxxx range, one is pretty much guaranteed that it is an unfinished conversion.

    The (T. LESS TELESCOPE) rifles are the easiest to fake as sniper rifles, since much of the conversion work had already been done by H&H i.e. cheek rest added, battle sight removed and scope pads fitted. As a result the presence, or not, of a matching No.32 scope/bracket/No.8 scope case, scooe serial number on wrist of butt and possibly a “T” marking are all features that need to be examined very closely.

    The Stevens-Savage sniper rifles were fitted with No.32 Mk. I scopes. If the rifle went through Factory Thorough Repair (F.T.R.) for example, it might well receive a newer model scope in which case the old scope number would be cancelled on the butt and a new scope number added. As well, the bracket would normally have the rifle serial number stamped into the left side. One could expect such a rifle to have been well used. If it had new wood fitted, that wood would not likely have all been Stevens-Savage wood, but rather could be from any of the suppliers. The front scope pad on a well used one would likely have several stake marks per front pad screw, indicating heavy usage. The Imperial War Museum has a Stevens-Savage L42A1, presumably with the L1A1 conversion of a No.32 Mk.3 scope. They could not tell me the serial number however as they had not bothered to record that when they catalogued the rifle! Also it was on display, so it was not easily accessible.

    Popping on an orphaned scope and bracket makes it look just like a sniper rifle, which is great if the set-up is cheap, but that does not mean that it ever was a real sniper rifle. Spending a lot of money on this would not be recommended unless the rifle was carefully examined and vetted by a very knowledgeable person such as Roger Payneicon.
    Colin, I have to disagree with pretty much everything you have said.

    A No4 with the pads fitted is a "finished" conversion, not a partially converted, not an incomplete rifle, nor is it a rejected rifle in some way.

    Once the pads have been fitted, there is no difference between an Enfield/ BSA/Maltby/Long Branch/Savage or Fazakerly - fitting the pads IS the essential part of the conversion.

    Adding a missmatched No32 scope to a No4T rifle which has lost it's scope is absolutely no different than adding a No32 scope to a "less telescope" No4T - one is no more correct than the other.

    Neither one is correct, and neither one is "faked".

    Is a "less scope" rifle less correct than a rifle which has been re-barreled, restocked, or had a repro set of rings fitted to add a mismatched scope?

    And specific to Savage No4MkI(T) and No4MKI*(T) rifles, they were converted to snipers before the "T" on the sidewall of the receiver became standardized. I would suggest that probably all of them were added later in life (service or otherwise).

    Popping on an orphaned scope and bracket makes it look just like a sniper rifle, which is great if the set-up is cheap, but that does not mean that it ever was a real sniper rifle. Spending a lot of money on this would not be recommended unless the rifle was carefully examined and vetted by a very knowledgeable person such as Roger Payne.
    Were the Savage No4T rifles issued without scopes for use as sniping rifles in Rhodesia real sniping rifles?
    Last edited by Lee Enfield; 07-20-2021 at 11:20 PM.
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  14. #70
    Legacy Member Scouser (T)'s Avatar
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    Hi guys, thanks for your responses. The world of the No. 4 Mk1/Mk1* (T) is confusing to say the least. The ideal would of course, be an all matching numbers, in the transit case with all the bits and bobs that went with it. Talk about Holy Grail! Until that one appears for sale on my horizon, I'm looking for as close to it as possible. The rifle I have found is, in my inexperienced mind a least, a genuine Savage H&H conversion. The S51 appears where expected, the scope mount pads are there, but don't appear the have had their screws staked, the cheek riser is present and the rest of the rifle has all matching serial numbers. The wood, barrel etc. is in exceptional condition. This may point to the rifle never having been 'issued' and sent straight to stores. There is no scope serial number on the 'wrist' or a 'T' on the side of the body which, as you both mentioned, some of the early rifles didn't have the 'T'. It's the complete absence of a scope number stamp which leads me to believe this to be a 'Less Scope'. I imagine this affects the price as a Savage rifle which went on to be fitted 'at the H&H workshop' with a scope is a pretty rare beast as I understand. The 'Less Scope' savage rifles being more common would be less valuable. I'm very tempted, but don't want to pay a premium for a rifle that isn't what the seller believes it to be, that is a 'completed' H&H sniper rifle.
    Last edited by Scouser (T); 07-22-2021 at 05:43 AM.

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