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Thread: No. 4 "Singer" sights revisited

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  1. #21
    Legacy Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lance View Post
    Up front, I do not know. P in a circle does have the same type of inspectors stamps as the No.5 & 7 bayonets from Poole. The regular P also has multiple inspector marks, but of a different type. Second, they also made No. 5 sights. POFicon did not make the No.5 but like RFI might have made sights for them for spares?
    The 'P in the circle' is certainly a very different font to the (uncircled) P. It seems to be much 'fatter / circular' with a shorter leg.

    The (uncircled) P has the CR number which I'm guessing would not be used by the PoF, I wonder if anyone has unequivical evidence of which is which.
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  3. #22
    Legacy Member Roy W's Avatar
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    Here is a rear sight from a 1943 BSA 4T. It has the P in a circle, F9 and B

    Thoughts?

    Also, an early LB mk1 sight as fitted to the 0L and some 1L series rifles, so must have been making them in 1941 so perhaps Singer were not the only early manufacturer.

    Attachment 114110Attachment 114109

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  5. #23
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    Roy, I'd suspect the Poole rear sight on the rifle was a post-WW2 replacement. Nice LB rear sight.

    Had a rummage in the garage & found P without circle No4 & No5 sights. I'm certain I had some sight leaves with the P in a circle as well, but I've sold or traded a lot recently & must have parted with them all. I do still seem to have lots of cursors though, & quite a few have the P in a circle on them. I really don't know any more than anyone else on this, but my gut instinct is that both P with & P without a circle are indicative of ROF Poole, & are probably just variations on a theme. Maybe someone will be able to clarify in due course. I used to have hundreds of rear sight leaves, all as far as I was aware ex MoD. Most were Faz, quite a few BSA & a fair few P marked, both with & without the circle. It's quite possible one variant could be Pakistan, but it would seem a little odd for them to be mixed up in a lot of UKicon made spares...........but I guess anything's possible, as we've said so often before!

    Savage rear sight & Faz cursor just included out as a contrast/curiosity.
    Last edited by Roger Payne; 01-12-2021 at 04:52 PM.

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    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Poole made a fine product as those excellent photos show. Have one here with the same markings as the right hand example. As tight a slide as any MkI backsight I've handled, and tighter than most.

    I've forgotten when the CR series numbers were introduced, but that should tell us something about their production dates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Payneicon View Post
    It's a can of worms isn't it?!?

    I suspect the only way a lot of these questions will ever get answered definitively is if more documentation turns up at some point in the future. But it doesn't stop us from musing does it........?

    The early production Savage rifles in the UKicon would certainly have fitted the bill for conversion, & the fact that they were already equipped with Mk1 rear sights would have been useful. I had always just assumed that prior to the stipulation that H&H would only take BSA rifles, decided upon not long after they took over conversion from RSAF, rifles of all manufacturers would have been considered eligible for conversion, so long as they satisfied accuracy requirements (& were so converted). This stance fits in with the now generally accepted view that a few Fazakerley rifles were also converted, but doesn't explain the gaps in places, such as why do we not see BSA 42 & Maltby 42 conversions, but we do see Savage rifles dated both 41 & 42? Perhaps the explanation could be that the 42 BSA's & 42 Maltby's were all fitted with battle sights & at that stage the relaxation to permit them to be converted had not been passed? As mentioned above, both the 41 & 42 dated Savage rifles all came across the Atlantic already sporting Mk1 sights........got converted along with B41 & ROFM 41 rifles (& a few ROF (F) 41 rifles that were already put aside for this purpose (& which were possessed of Mk1 rear sights)).........

    Just maybe we don't see 4 T's built on 42 dated UK produced No4's because they were all fitted with battle sights at this time..........plus, with the slow take off of 4T conversion, there was probably more than enough rifles from 41 production to go around...?????
    We've seen a number of 1941 ROF(M) conversions here over the years, would be interesting to revisit whether they have SM41 or 42 sights? Would also be interesting to see what make of cocking pieces in the case of Mk.I "button" types. IIRC the 1941 ROF(M) "T" that I had was wearing a Savage Mk.I cocking piece; will have to check photos.

    I suspect the problem in sight supply might have been due to the devastation of Clydebank in March 1941. I see the Singer factory lost approx. 390,000 square feet of factory area in the bombing.
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  8. #25
    Legacy Member Roy W's Avatar
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    I recently acquired 2 '1L' series LB No.4 Mk1's. I was keen to have LB marked rear sights for them. Thanks to a member of this forum and one other I was actually able to obtain 3.

    I now have a third to put on my 95L

    They are all going to be shot, hence my wanting Mk1 sights.


    Attachment 114180Attachment 114181Attachment 114182Attachment 114184

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    Legacy Member Mk VII's Avatar
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    The CR numbers are postwar.

  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy W View Post
    I recently acquired 2 '1L' series LB No.4 Mk1's. I was keen to have LB marked rear sights for them. Thanks to a member of this forum and one other I was actually able to obtain 3.

    I now have a third to put on my 95L

    They are all going to be shot, hence my wanting Mk1 sights.


    Attachment 114180Attachment 114181Attachment 114182Attachment 114184
    One is a find, two is remarkable! Any indication of where they've been? I have two here, but they are restoration projects.
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

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  12. #28
    Legacy Member Roy W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    One is a find, two is remarkable! Any indication of where they've been? I have two here, but they are restoration projects.
    They turned up on Britishicon dealer sites over the last year. One is a 3 digit 1L, and sat on the site for over 2 years unsold because it was too expensive. He dropped the price, still expensive, but I bit the bullet.
    They are both waiting at my dealer's waiting to go on my firearms certificate once I can travel due to COVID restrictions.

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  14. #29
    Legacy Member Roy W's Avatar
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    Attachment 114207


    An early Broad arrow BSA for the mix

  15. #30
    Legacy Member tonyd's Avatar
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    What maker uses F? I have two of them with F stamped on the body and leaf and one very faintly on the adjusting knob. One of them is on my maltby T and has had the underside of the leaf hollowed out for removal of the bolt with the scope fitted, quite handy.

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