Hello, again! Rifle mag 8x57 hot loads

[jon_norstog]

Hey, guys,

took me a while to figure where the Jouster lists went ... here's a good one for you all. Rifle mag, March '09, has an article on 8x57 "magnum" loads. The author likes his 8 ... so do I, and I've been loading for the 8 for maybe 15 years.

Most of the loads in the aticle were just good, stiff 8mm loads. One of them was something else ..

"150 gr. Sierra sp, 56.5 gr. Winchester 748, 2800+ fps"

This has gotta be a misprint. My Hodgdon manual doesn't list any Winchester powder loads for the 8x57, but does list them for the '06 and .308. For those cartridges the max loads with 150 gr bullet are right around 50 gr.

The only way I would shoot that load is in someone else's gun, rested in an old tire and pulling the trigger with a 20-foot string. It's gotta be a misprint.
I'm going to call the magazine tomorrow and raise my concerns ..

I'm not an alarmist, actually I tend to push the envelope with the 8x57, especially with hunting loads. But I can recognize a load that is gonna blow a gun. W 748 is right in the same burning rate range as Ball C - I might try say 48 gr of that with the 150 gr bullet, maybe start at 46.5 and work up. **56.5 gr.!!**


jn

Information

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[Matt Anthony]

My 1989 Winchester components catalog lists the 8MM Mauser at 46 gr's of 748 with a 170 gr. bullet and 48.0 gr's of 760 with the same 170 gr. bullet.

Pushing the envelope could cause many disasters, blown off hands and fingers, blindness, brain injuries and then there are the bystanders or shooters sitting next to you.

I don't understand the reasoning behind pushing the projectile past the manufacturers specifications. Most loads in 99.9999% of rifles shoot the most accurate loads in the moderate zone, somewhere between starting and max. I think you need a 50 BMG or maybe a 105 Howitzer!

All in all, there is nothing wrong with the 8MM, but I'd rather have the 35 Whelen, now that is one sweet cartridge for heavier North American game.

[MIKE33]

If You think there is a problem with the data do not use it .There is a great deal of proven safe load data out there for the 8x57mm cartridge BE SAFE

[Bill H]

I thought the whole premise of the article was silly. Any good reloading manual has "full power" loads for the 8x57, and all he was doing was somehow making the obvious into a magazine article which had nothing new.

My Sierra manual stops at about 46 grains of 748. Obviously a misprint in the article. Just another example for the need to do a little research on any new load, and compare with other published data.

I agree with the comment on the .35 Whelen. Have two, one of which is the ackley improved version, and both shoot and kill game very very well.

Another good round is the .350 Remington magnum. Same ballistics as the .35 Whelen, but can be used in short action. My model 7CDL with 20 inch barrel is extremely handy rifle which almost exactly duplicates results with .35 Whelen

[Matt Anthony]

I inherited a Win. M70 Lightweight in 358 Winchester. It has taken 12 deer over the years when I tree sitting in upper Wisconsin. Hasn't been shot much in 20 years, but you certainly cannot dispute that the 358 is a great woods gun.
My only gripe on this particular rifle is it's too light for me now that I am over 60 and you can only shoot 3 rounds and then let it cool due to the barrel diameter.

[Parashooter]

I believe you're unnecessarily alarmed. The Hodgdon website shows BL-C2 (a powder very similar to 748) at a maximum of 55 grains with a 150 in 8x57. -

Bullet weight/type - Powder - Diameter- OAL - Charge - M/V - Pressure

150 GR. HDY SP - Hodgdon BL-C(2) - .323" - 2.950" - 55.0 - 2962 - 48,400 CUP

QuickLoad estimates the 150 Sierra, 56.5 gr. 748 load at about 2800 psi below the CIP maximum for modern 8x57's. It's misleading to extrapolate from the .30/06 to the 8x57 - the added bore and bullet diameter makes for significant changes from an interior ballistics standpoint.

[jon_norstog]

Hey, thanks for all the replies. Parashooter got it right. I was needlessly alarmed. This is what I got from Rifle magazine:

Dear Mr. Norstog,

The newest Hornady manual lists a 150-grain Hornady using 56.2 grains of
Winchester 748 at 2,900 fps. This is a maximum load for a Hornady bullet.

The load in the Rifle 243 is a maximum load for the Sierra bullet. We do
recommend reducing all the loads in our magazine by 10% and then working up
to be extra safe.

Hodgdon owns Winchester powder but they do almost nothing to promote it.
When was the last time you saw a Winchester powder ad ever. They have
minimal load data for the Winchester powders. They are pushing their Hodgdon
and IMR brands especially on the web site.

Check out our LoadData.com site it has data from all the manuals. We have
loads of data Using Winchester powders in the 8x57. The nice thing about our
web site www.loaddata.com is that we have almost every bullet and powder
combination available.

Thanks,
Don
Wolfe Publishing Co

I do think two nice things about the 8x57 are: it goes through the press really easy, and it will digest surprisingly stiff loads of medium-to-fast burning powder. two other good things are, sporterized mausers are still really cheap, and it will knock down a moose with 1 shot.

I like the .35 Whelan, too, it has a more sensible relationship of case volume to bore than the '06. My brother switches off between his Whelan and his 8x57 when we go elk hunting. I stuck with the 8 until last year when I switched to a 30-40. That's another story. This year we may move into open country - 7mm mag, here I come.

jn

[MEHavey]

From the 6th ed Hornady Manual:
Mauser`98
24" 1 in 9-1/4 twist
RP Case
RP 9-1/2 Primer
*Hornday*150gr SP (#3232)
OAL: 2.975" for *that* bullet
Min Load/velocity: W748/46.6gr - 2,400fps
Max Load/velocity: W748/56.2gr - 2,900fps

QUICKLOAD - those exact inputs (RP Case w/ 64.2gr H2O Vol measured)
W748/56.2gr --> 94.5% case fill
59,117psi chamber (Max is at 56,565psi(CIP)
3,113fps

Note that making the OAL only 1/10" longer (3.075" w/ only 1/10" left in case) results in: 55,000psi and 3,065fps .... very sensitive to seating depth

Using Hornady's other "hot" 2,900fps load in QUICKLOAD
OAL: 3.075" (w/ only 1/10" left in case)
RL-15/54.3gr
48,301psi chamber
2,933fps
- and -
OAL: 2.975" (Hornady manual recommended length)
RL-15/54.3gr
51,684psi chamber
2,980fps

BOTTOM LINE:
W748 at 56.2gr sure looks hot to me... which is why I never leave home w/o the chronograph anymore. It may be just fine. But only the chronograph will give enough additional data to make your own decision.




.

[jon_norstog]

Hey, guys,

This is food for thought. Those are some hellacious ballistics, I'd love to see how they work out downrange. This tells me I should get some modern equipment and some software and work a little closer to the edge on my loads.

I mostly go by reading primers and cases, and by sound. A good load makes a pretty sharp crack. But I can see it is possible to be much more scientific about your loads.

jn

[Sunray]

No Win 748 used on their site for a 150 either. It is given for a 125 and 170 grain bullet though. Mind you, that just means they didn't test it when they did the load developement. Give Hodgdon a call and ask 'em if they have any data. 913-362-9455. Fax# 913-362-1307 help@hodgdon.com