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  1. #11
    Contributing Member W5USMC's Avatar
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    Saw it all the time in the Real Marine Corps, granted a much later time frame 1982-2012. Group of Marines from a Platoon go to the rifle range for a week, have to clean their weapon for 3 consecutive days after that. They would bring their rifles back to the shop, dump all the parts together in a solvent tank parts basket with no regard to what parts belonged to who. Used to drive me crazy!!!

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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #12
    Contributing Member rcathey's Avatar
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    This is basically exactly what FN did en masse after the war.
    Agreed, troops in the field likely didn’t do it this way.
    However, if you were doing it on an industrial level, throwing all the parts into bins is the only way that makes sense.

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  6. #13
    Legacy Member DaveHH's Avatar
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    I understand that at boot camp in the Corps this was done a lot. I'm giving Juggies a pass because the Marine Corps lives and breathes the rifle. I knew a lot guys that were in the NG and when they were down at Camp Roberts selling mints and cookies they would take their M1s apart and put the parts in the washing machine, then put them back together. That shows you how important their weapons were to them. Not to disparage them because heck, one of my friends fought in the battle of Berkeley. When I was REFRAD at Ft Lewis after 22 months, they said that I was still going to be in the Army Reserves and would have to do six weeks a year at Roberts, I told the guy, "I'm never doing this again, I'm never putting that uniform on again, If you want me to do that reserve $ you'll have to arrest me." They had a little pow-wow and told me that they'd put me in a control group. Four years later they mailed me my discharge. I wonder how many guys had to do that six weeks a year when they could have just said "No".

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    Legacy Member Eaglelord17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveHH View Post
    I was drafted in 1965, spent six months in the 5th Inf Div in Colorado and then on to Vietnam for a year (66-67). Basic training was at Ft Ord Calif with good Infantry Cadre. I never once heard of anyone or any group of soldiers taking their weapons apart and dumping the parts into a pile and then putting them back together. That may have occurred in some NG unit where a bunch of civilians got dressed up and played Army for 6 weeks every year, but in the real Army I never saw anything like that.
    WWII isn't Vietnam. I don't sit there and say how I have been trained to do things in the 2010s-present is how things were done in the 20 years prior (especially with different weapons systems, a variety of different levels of training, and different elements). Easy example of this which is documented is using the Reising SMGs which had carefully fitted parts which would get mixed up when the troops would clean them and help contribute to their failure on the battlefield.

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    Legacy Member DaveHH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglelord17 View Post
    'Corrected' is faked. It is the same thing as stamping new serial numbers on a rifle to make it 'all matching', and is about the same level of honesty. American arms have this issue because people refuse to accept how they were actually used (i.e. you stripped the rifles as sections, threw the parts into a pile and cleaned then threw them back together, not to mention the constant rebuilds/refurbishments) and refuse to accept how they left service. To each their own, but in my opinion it is the destruction of history, not the preservation of it.
    While I was in the Army 20 years after WW2, there was still a lot of ww2 training and culture in the Army. Almost all of our cadre were Korean War and WW2 vets, my Sergeant in VN was at Bastogne and was shot by the Germans. We still had plenty of WW2 weapons floating around, Grease Guns, Thompsons, our 50 cals, Rocket launchers, and of course all of our 45 pistols. There were still WW2 C Rats in the supply depots and almost all of the 105 ammunition that was shot in our camp for the first year was WW2 vintage brass cased, later we started using wrapped steel Korean war stuff.. Your post makes it sound like Americans all used that same method of cleaning and I'm saying that while some outfits may have done it that way, not everyone did. Just because there was a wholesale mix up of parts done at FN after the war as a make work project for Belgians, doesn't mean everyone did it that way. Many thousands of new carbines built in 1944 spent their life in a depot completely untouched by the rebuild program (I have two, both complete original guns). Many rebuild facilities failed to follow regulations on new or fairly new guns as a matter of course. Most high mile carbines were supposed to have the muzzles reamed out, yet very few did, Type 2 bands were supposed to be changed to type 3 bands and lots of them were left as is. And any guns with hard to see # were supposed to be remarked on the front portion of the receiver and very few were. There are still many complete guns from 1944 out there many were NRA $20 purchases straight off the rack at depots.

    I agree with your views on "Correcting". The carbines were doomed because parts of the puzzle were marked and some folks found the puzzle irresistible. The outcome of part swapping guns was predicted and it happened as people assumed it would.
    Last edited by DaveHH; 04-26-2021 at 01:35 PM.

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    Legacy Member WinterRanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaglelord17 View Post
    'Corrected' is faked. It is the same thing as stamping new serial numbers on a rifle to make it 'all matching', and is about the same level of honesty. American arms have this issue because people refuse to accept how they were actually used (i.e. you stripped the rifles as sections, threw the parts into a pile and cleaned then threw them back together, not to mention the constant rebuilds/refurbishments) and refuse to accept how they left service. To each their own, but in my opinion it is the destruction of history, not the preservation of it.
    M1s have become a new hobby for me. I’m now to the point in my life where I can have the funds to purchase them even at today’s outrageous prices. I have thought long and hard about this very topic. Sorry don’t mean to steal the thread. The ODC in me wants an all correct carbine. Is there a problem with that? At first I didn’t think so but I’ve done a lot of reading about it. Even bought a few parts to swap out. But the more and more I think about this I’ve come to the opinion that “as issued” is more significant than anything. I’ll give you an example. I recently purchased an M1icon. It’s as issued, (hate the term mixmaster). It has an Inland Barrel and Receiver along with some SG, U, and post WWII parts. The stock is early Underwood per the cartouche markings. But I was puzzled. How could it be early underwood but have what appears to be a 10 inch cut for the operating handle?? So I looked closer. Sure enough it became apparent to me the extra 3ish inches that made the cut almost 10 inches was done not at the factory but what appears to be in the field. It’s not a clean cut, and it’s not without knife marks. Now the stock does have an armory cartouche on it, but the cut seems too uneven along that 4 inch surfaces to be armory. Could it be? Sure. But what a better historical story to think it COULD have been done in the field by a solider. That’s just one of many stories the carbine has as issued. Changing out the parts IMHO alters the history of the piece. And that’s just what it is....a piece of history.8
    Last edited by WinterRanger; 04-26-2021 at 03:43 PM.

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  12. #17
    firstflabn
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveHH View Post
    Just because there was a wholesale mix up of parts done at FN after the war as a make work project for Belgians, doesn't mean everyone did it that way.
    Except for this part, good job trying to teach the OP that a line in a TM is not the same as budget authority or a work order. I don't know, are we the only ones that understand the effects of the devastating budget cuts immediately postwar?

    The ETO General Board in their early postwar report describes an "...emasculation of Ordnance service. Personnel received as replacements for high points ordnance personnel were generally unskilled and unsuited to the task of receiving, repairing, and preparing for shipment the volume of materiel that flooded Ordnance installations."

    So it was the loss of experienced personnel that led Ordnance to FN's door. Without FN (and many other private concerns) even more ordnance materiel would have rusted away in supply dumps and on railroad sidings. Units redeploying to the Pacific packed their own gear and the occupation force had adequate ordnance support (thanks to a year's worth of planning), but that left all the gear formerly carried by the nearly 800k GIs being discharged upon arrival back in the U.S.

    Redeployment was, of course, an ETO top priority and every nerve was strained - either to get units packed up and on their way to the Pacific or demobilizing GIs on their way home to resume making Buicks and babies.

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  14. #18
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    firstflabn,
    I love your researching abilities !

    I don't know if you'd call it a cleaning party,
    But when called upon to help unpack Small Arms and equipment, My Father said they used Kerosene and or Diesel to remove packing oils and grease (Never heard him say Cosmo), which ever they could get while in the Philippines. Gas was his favorite but was hard to get a hold of. Cut down Oil or Fuel barrels set up for 1st clean, next barrels had cleaner fuel for 2nd clean off. All ended up being fire starter and used oils saved to skim the swamp water to kill mosquito larvae.
    He only spoke about putting the bigger stuff like barreled receivers in the cleaning barrels, but also said Serial numbers were kept track of by 'Clip Boarders'. And hanging them to drip dry. Never heard any mention of the smaller parts. Other than there were plenty of guys set up in barracks tents to mess with the small detailed stuff. I do recall him saying they caught H3ll for using the used Diesel or kerosene to start fires to burn off the crates... because of the black smoke and smell.

    He had bigger heavy equipment to tend to. So I doubt he spent much time doing the above.
    Charlie-Painter777

    A Country Has No Greater Responsibility Than To Care For Those Who Served...

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    Legacy Member lboos's Avatar
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    Last edited by lboos; 04-27-2021 at 08:33 AM.

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    Legacy Member Eaglelord17's Avatar
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    Another thing to consider, its actually a compliment that all these M1s are 'mixed up' as it meant the parts were made right. The whole reason for serializing equipment was to do with keeping the fitted parts together. By time we started making smokeless powder firearms many of the designs were more or less interchangeable on parts but the parts numbering was carried on from the earlier hand-fitted era. Quite a feat to make that many firearms which you can practically swap any part out to another gun and it will function fine. It is also part of what drives collectors insane as when they were updating or going through refit it was a matter of changing out worn or not updated parts, and replacing them with the new updated ones. Extremely practical, just not collector friendly as the earlier parts then become much rarer.

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