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  1. #21
    Legacy Member TBIRD430's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveHH View Post
    They could also have been "Corrected".

    BOOM.

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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #22
    Legacy Member DaveHH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstflabn View Post
    Except for this part, good job trying to teach the OP that a line in a TM is not the same as budget authority or a work order. I don't know, are we the only ones that understand the effects of the devastating budget cuts immediately postwar?

    The ETO General Board in their early postwar report describes an "...emasculation of Ordnance service. Personnel received as replacements for high points ordnance personnel were generally unskilled and unsuited to the task of receiving, repairing, and preparing for shipment the volume of materiel that flooded Ordnance installations."

    So it was the loss of experienced personnel that led Ordnance to FN's door. Without FN (and many other private concerns) even more ordnance materiel would have rusted away in supply dumps and on railroad sidings. Units redeploying to the Pacific packed their own gear and the occupation force had adequate ordnance support (thanks to a year's worth of planning), but that left all the gear formerly carried by the nearly 800k GIs being discharged upon arrival back in the U.S.

    Redeployment was, of course, an ETO top priority and every nerve was strained - either to get units packed up and on their way to the Pacific or demobilizing GIs on their way home to resume making Buicks and babies.
    I appreciate praise/criticism from you in any form. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the work done by the FM personnel was a make work project to the extent that they had plenty of trained skilled people twiddling their thumbs and they were broke and hungry. It makes sense that if you are going to farm out this work, might as well have honest skilled people doing it. I would imagine that after 4 years of working for the Germans they were very willing and proud to be working for the Yanks. Since Monty had gone off to Market Garden and ignored the Scheldt river access to Antwerp, the Army was denied use of one of the finest ports in the area which they desperately needed and the Belgians were denied all of the goodies that go with having a major port, food, gasoline, and all the stuff the Army uses. The US owed Belgiumicon a favor. Maybe that huge contract was the favor? That one great photo of the FN folks working away suggests "Make work" lots of people doing something others standing there with their arms crossed. One thing is unmistakable, they were all ****ed off which would definitely be the case after working for the Boche. In any event, the task was an important one and with the Japaneseicon to deal with, these weapons were essential.

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  5. #23
    Legacy Member lboos's Avatar
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    Getting back to the OP.
    I kinda look at it this way, from what I have read and looked up on the internet on carbines over the years, put them in this order:
    #1. This would be a WW-2 configured carbine that has never been touched or missed with since WW-2, which there are prob. about 10 total, and I doubt that.
    #2. One that has been corrected, with org. WW-2 parts back to it's org. configuration. and that's about 99% of so-called org. WW-2 carbines out there.
    #3. One that has all the post war mod's.
    They are all still WW-2 carbines, and putting one back to it's org. WW-2 configuration is not faking one, it's just correcting it back to the way it was made for WW-2 .
    And if you have family members or friends that used them in Korea or Vietnam, then the post war carbines with all there mod's are the way to go, I like all of them,.
    But, for some one to say that if you change the configuration from the way the Military last used them, that it is now a fake carbine, is just BS...IMHO.
    I really like all the comments, and I agree there are a lot of experts here, and I have learned a lot over the years, and all of the above is just one man's opinion, and I am still trying to learn.
    It is the little gun that help win WW-2.
    Last edited by lboos; 04-27-2021 at 06:57 PM.

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  7. #24
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    Quick math...... say 6 million made, 99% upgraded ..... leaves what about 60,000 possible Originals.
    All done without a calculator, I'm too tired to find one.

    Funny though Louis, That 'Everyone' seems to have 1 or 2 Originals.

    Me ? If I've got a bad sear in my Underwood, I'm looking for a Underwood sear to replace it.
    Feel lucky we can still own them.
    Charlie-Painter777

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  9. #25
    Legacy Member lboos's Avatar
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    Painter,
    You are right, I should have been more clear, I meant 99% of those "clamed" to be org. not of the 6 million carbine's made.
    Last edited by lboos; 04-27-2021 at 08:52 PM.

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    Contributing Member Singer B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by painter777 View Post
    Quick math...... say 6 million made, 99% upgraded ..... leaves what about 60,000 possible Originals.
    All done without a calculator, I'm too tired to find one.

    Funny though Louis, That 'Everyone' seems to have 1 or 2 Originals.

    Me ? If I've got a bad sear in my Underwood, I'm looking for a Underwood sear to replace it.
    Feel lucky we can still own them.
    What's even more amazing is all of the people with "numbers matching" carbines.......

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by lboos View Post
    Painter,
    You are correct, and I don't have a calculator ether, so Ill change my est. to "0" original's carbines.
    I've seen several originals here on the Carbine Forum over the years. Spend some time searching and you should be able to find a few - complete with pictures and data sheets verifying the parts. I believe I have (2) originals, although one of them has two damaged parts on it. The other one I've had for 5 years and have never started a thread on - yet! - Bob

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    Legacy Member Eaglelord17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lboos View Post
    Getting back to the OP.
    I kinda look at it this way, from what I have read and looked up on the internet on carbines over the years, put them in this order:
    #1. This would be a WW-2 configured carbine that has never been touched or missed with since WW-2, which there are prob. about 10 total, and I doubt that.
    #2. One that has been corrected, with org. WW-2 parts back to it's org. configuration. and that's about 99% of so-called org. WW-2 carbines out there.
    #3. One that has all the post war mod's.
    They are all still WW-2 carbines, and putting one back to it's org. WW-2 configuration is not faking one, it's just correcting it back to the way it was made for WW-2 .
    And if you have family members or friends that used them in Korea or Vietnam, then the post war carbines with all there mod's are the way to go, I like all of them,.
    But, for some one to say that if you change the configuration from the way the Military last used them, that it is now a fake carbine, is just BS...IMHO.
    I really like all the comments, and I agree there are a lot of experts here, and I have learned a lot over the years, and all of the above is just one man's opinion, and I am still trying to learn.
    It is the little gun that help win WW-2.
    I think there were more left in original configuration than 1%, just your odds of seeing them in the USAicon are much lower. Most the ones left intact would likely have been given away as war surplus/aid to foreign countries and thereby not really allowed back into country for the most part. For example I have seen two so far in my life, which were not 'corrected' or faked. One I suspect was from the Philippines, it was in really rough shape, hard to fake that type of wear over everything. The other I strongly suspect wasn't faked because my buddy bought it for way less than market value off someone who just had a M1 Carbine, and he didn't know what he had bought until I took a quick look at it.

    I get that you don't like the idea your faking it, a lot of Americans seem to think that way, but doesn't change what your doing. If you are a collector it is about preserving history not altering it. Changing it because it suits your idea of history is altering it, not preserving it. I can't just take a Isreali K98kicon and take the 7.62 markings off it, rebarrel it to 8mm Mauser and call it a WWII K98k, even though your just 'changing the configuration back to WWII standard' and that's how it originally would have been. Your not correcting something if it isn't broken.

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  15. #29
    Legacy Member deldriver's Avatar
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    I've never bought into the 99% were rebuilt statements made and also remember not every carbine was totally rebuilt when its time came. There's so many variables with millions of carbines made that it would truly boggle the minds of those if they would take a step back and remember things like imperfect humans, lack of available parts, changing work requirements and possible time restraints just to name a few possibilities.

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  17. #30
    Contributing Member Singer B's Avatar
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    So that leads to a question for us novice collectors - what do you look for to determine if your carbine is original? I broke down my Underwood and completed a data sheet which revealed it has all of the correct parts it should have had when it left the factory. It needed a lot of love to bring it back to being a presentable and usable rifle. It looks original (patina, type 1, wear, etc.), the part diagram numbers say original, but how do I know it's original? This is a really interesting topic for me since I am currently looking at several other M1s for sale and I really wonder about my Underwood because it was a diamond in the rough when I got it and she became a true diamond when I finished her. After seeing some of the responses here, I now wonder how "original" she really is? Thanks!

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