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  1. #31
    Legacy Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
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    The army works in sections, platoons, and similar groups, often with machine and submachine guns, etc. It is unlikely that one ping would encourage a charge by the enemy, even if they could hear it at the distance they would be - rifle shooting distance - as the rest of the group would still be there. House clearing is never alone, who is with you in the foxhole, etc. I would imagine the ping would have been rectified if it had been that much of an issue.

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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #32
    Legacy Member ROCK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark in Rochester View Post
    The M-1 was an amazing rifle, they said, but that ping could get you in trouble
    Possibly a problem in a couple of situations during close contact. Visuals could be a problem too. The locked back slide of a 1911 could be a visual indication of an empty weapon if seen by the enemy, but I've never heard any mention of that. The raised toggle bolt of the Pederson rifle would have been very obvious to an opponent if that rifle had been adopted.

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  5. #33
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilevi View Post
    Vets Lie or missrember.
    Very much so and not so much dishonestly. I had a situation decades back that I recalled clearly about being in a spot and a man I knew well was in the vehicle with me...a few years ago I mentioned it and he told me he was in the other vehicle...all those years I had it wrong.

    Why do we go through this whole thing about the M1icon ping over and over...?
    Regards, Jim

  6. #34
    Contributing Member Mark in Rochester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by browningautorifleicon View Post
    Why do we go through this whole thing about the M1icon ping over and over...?
    Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

    No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary.

    The simple explanation is that both cases are true in a full scale push it is very unlikely to hear the ping yet if a soldier is isolated it can be an issue.

    The problem come in when it is absolutely held that it is an either or proposition both are true



    http://thegca.org/wp-content/uploads...52-reduced.pdf

    Page 5 #10. The noise caused by ejection of the empty clip from the M-1, despite the fact that at close range it could be heard by the enemy, was considered valuable by the rifleman as a signal to reload


    The Ml's Tactical Advantage?

    The "Question & Answer" on "The Ml 's 'Deadly Defect?'" (November 2011, p. 42) reminded me of a conversation I had with my dad regarding the Ml Garand and its clip during WorldWar II. I just got off the phone with my dad to confirm his Garand clip experiences. His name is Robert Emary, and he served in I Company, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, l0lst Airborne Division. When the war ended, he was a technical sergeant and first sergeant for the company. He was a replacement and fought from Market Garden to Berchtesgarten.

    According to him, at Bastogne it was very common practice to bait the Germans by squeezing and releasing an empty clip to get the "ping," and a lot of times an enemy would stand up, and that was the end of them. Initially, the Germans always seemed to know the exact time to expose themselves to put accurate fire on someone who had just emptied their Garand. He and his comrades knew the Germans could hear the clips coming out and also figured they were counting rounds. This happened pretty regularly at Bastogne, he said, because there were a lot of close-range engagements in the woods and dug in positions. Also, he always carried a couple empty clips in his field jacket pocket and would simply squeeze the clip, let it slide out of his fingers, hit the ground and be ready to shoot. After they started doing this, the Germans got a lot more cautious.

    He also told me some of the other tactics they used. When they were badly outnumbered, which was almost all the time, the Browning Automatic Rifleman would initially never fire other than a couple semi-automatic rounds. They were baiting the Germans and trying to get a number of them to get bold and expose themselves. When this happened the BAR man would let them have it. He said this was very effective and several times got them out of some bad situations. ~

    DAVE EMARY, NEBRASKA

    Last edited by Mark in Rochester; 05-22-2021 at 05:37 PM.
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    Contributing Member Bob Seijas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilevi View Post
    Vets Lie or missrember. They will addopt stories they hear from other people as their own.
    Amen. The ping allegation is pure bull$hit invented by somebody who wanted to sound smart. It's total crap.
    Real men measure once and cut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark in Rochester View Post
    Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

    No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary.
    Occam's razor: "entities should not be multiplied without necessity" I've often wondered how soldiers who certainly had "temporary threshold shift" (temporary reduction of hearing due to overload) and very possibly "shooter's notch" (permanent loss of hearing in a notch in the midrange due to exposure to firearms noise without hearing protection) could detect the ping of a clip ejection in anything other than utter silence and the clip being ejected onto a hard surface.

    Bob
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  11. #37
    Contributing Member Bob Seijas's Avatar
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    Legacy Member ROCK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark in Rochester View Post

    http://thegca.org/wp-content/uploads...52-reduced.pdf

    Page 5 #10. The noise caused by ejection of the empty clip from the M-1, despite the fact that at close range it could be heard by the enemy, was considered valuable by the rifleman as a signal to reload
    That's a very interesting report. I did a quick scan and on pg. 77 there was a mention of difficulty loading clips. Also, three officers stated their preference of magazines over clips. I wonder if there was any desire for the M1icon to use 20 round BAR magazines? I haven't seen anything critical of the 8 round capacity of the clips. GI's were familiar with BAR magazines and I wonder if they would have preferred the bulkier 20 round magazine vs.the lighter and more compact 8 round clip.

    I know that a couple of experimental rifles were produced that used different types of magazines that eliminated the clips. One of them used a Johnson type rotary magazine. Another was a side loader. Both were loaded with two 5 round stripper clips. There did not seem to be any desire to increase capacity beyond 10 rounds though. However, the Army did adopt the 20 round magazine for the full auto T20 rifles due to their high rate of fire.


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    I love the Op rod handle being on top in the picture above. It would be neat to get to work the action on that rifle
    "good night Chesty, Wherever You Are"

  15. #40
    Legacy Member ROCK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jond41403 View Post
    I love the Op rod handle being on top in the picture above. It would be neat to get to work the action on that rifle
    That vertical handle would eliminate one way used to minimize M1icon thumb; using the edge of the hand to block the op rod when closing the bolt. Looks like that protruding magazine would be in the way too.

    I guess one would have to use two hands to close the bolt on that rifle.

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