Sirius Dog Sled Patrol m1917

[Promo]

I‘d doubt there were only 40 of these rifles. For several years Bisgaard & Nielsen sold these on EGun in auctions, they were much cheaper than M1917 service rifles. They had them from from the mentioned trading company. If there were only 40 they would like had sold 39 of them and the one you have is the one they didn‘t sell.

[Mbechmann]

I‘d doubt there were only 40 of these rifles. For several years Bisgaard & Nielsen sold these on EGun in auctions, they were much cheaper than M1917 service rifles. They had them from from the mentioned trading company. If there were only 40 they would like had sold 39 of them and the one you have is the one they didn‘t sell.

You are talking about 2 different versions of these rifles. The 40 rifles I am talking about, are the Sirius Patrol rifles. The ones you are talking about are the 5000 rifles that was sold to the Royal Greenlandic Trading Company - and thats actually 5000 rifles where the sight was changed + an unknown number of unchanged rifles that was shipped in December 1960. So yes Bisgaard have sold the Royal Greenlandic Trading Company versions for years, but NOT the CONFIRMED Sirius Patrol rifles. Thats the difference.

You can see the details about how to spot the difference in this thread.

[Promo]

You can see the details about how to spot the difference in this thread

Well, not really. They seem to be identical and I did not see a picture showing the differences. The only thing you mention in your post is..

Its the carved HJV on the side of the rifle

And you quote this carving to the Danish Home Guard. Wouldn't they though mark all of their rifles with their own markings and not only 40 for the Sirius Dog Sled Patrol? Secondly, I'm having a bit of a tough time to imagine the Danish Home Guard hand carving a scripted HJV to the stock rather than to take a stamp or whatever was at hand and apply it to whatever they were happy to stamp upon.

If there was any other detail you had pointed out and I overread, please point it out to me. Just trying to learn. I don't doubt your rifle being one of those, I'm just trying to learn based on what one could tell the difference between a former RGTC and a Sirius rifle since to my understanding they were in identical configuration. Thanks!

[Mbechmann]

Well, not really. They seem to be identical and I did not see a picture showing the differences. The only thing you mention in your post is..

And you quote this carving to the Danish Home Guard. Wouldn't they though mark all of their rifles with their own markings and not only 40 for the Sirius Dog Sled Patrol? Secondly, I'm having a bit of a tough time to imagine the Danish Home Guard hand carving a scripted HJV to the stock rather than to take a stamp or whatever was at hand and apply it to whatever they were happy to stamp upon.

If there was any other detail you had pointed out and I overread, please point it out to me. Just trying to learn. I don't doubt your rifle being one of those, I'm just trying to learn based on what one could tell the difference between a former RGTC and a Sirius rifle since to my understanding they were in identical configuration. Thanks!

First of all, the front sight is different. In December 1960, the front sights on all rifles + spare barrels was changed in Denmark - 85000 in total. The ones the RGTC got shipped, all had changed front sight. Mine doesnt. This is actually the first major point. If it has no ears, and a round pin front sight, its RGTC.

Secondly, if you look at my rear sight, its crude machined. You can still see where it was machined. Its done VERY quickly and just got 1 layer of paint. Its a lot smoother and nicely done on the RGTC.

Thirdly, the RGTC rifles, were prepared for scopes. Mine isnt.

Forth. On the RGTC rifles you can also add an M1 visor sight. Take a look at this. https://huntershouse.dk/kat1758-Milit%C3%A6rhistorisk/side15186-Model-1917-53-17-Gr%C3%B8nlandsmodel-med-US-M1-Viser.html

As for the stamp. They did have a Home Guard stamp as well. It was on the underside of the stock. Mine has traces of something being stamped there, but its really worn out. What is there, does fit with the location and somewhat to the shape of the stamp.

As for the carving. You are right. This was most likely not done officially. This was done by the person who was handed the rifle from the Home Guard between 1953-60. The way they did this (and still do this way) is that you were handed a rifle. This was yours personally until you stopped in the Home Guard for some reason. Thats what I think happened here. Somebody was handed this rifle in 1953, and kept it for a number of years, until it was returned. When it was returned, this carving was done.

Last but not least. I have had it confirmed by a former member of the Sirius patrol that they did have several rifles they used, had the ammo pouch on them. So if you find one of those, you are good . He also confirmed that they didnt get new rifles while he was there, and that the rifles they used were old and just maintained.

All in all, its the sum of all the parts + the historic info found. Thats what makes a difference here.

[pickax]

Well, settled in on the lake in Maine, catching up on this thread.
Very interesting to read about the RGTC rifles and their modifications. The M1 carbine sight looks quite well done.

[Promo]

You do not show front sight nor rear sight with your rifle that you have posted in here, nor how it was installed or machined. Please share pictures of this.

Within how were the RGTC rifles prepared for scopes?

The rifles that Bisgaard & Nielsen were selling all had the rear sight bases milled off, no provision for a M1 sight such as in your link, and all had an emergency rear sight fitted to the barrel shank. B&N claimed they come from the RGTC.

Another member in here who is also from Denmark said the following:

I know this is an old thread but I just want to clear a misunderstanding.
The M1917 rifles or M/53 (17) as they are officialy named by the Danish military that are being used by the Sirius Patrol in Greenland does still have their original rear sights. The Sirius Patrol is a Danish military unit and uses the rifles in original condition as issued and they are as far as I know not modified in any way.

The M1917 rifles wtih cut-off rear sights are surplus rifles that were modified and sold to the local civilian hunters in Greenland via the Kgl. Grønlandske Handel which roughly translates into the Royal Greenland Trading company. The reason for the modification, as Promo correctly says, was because the hunters didn't want the peep sight as it was easily blocked by snow and ice. The modification was performed by Kgl. Grønlandske Handel who used a subcontractor to do the actual work. The Danish militay has not used rifles where the rear sight has been cut off.

Link to this post here: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post339206

So basically he is saying the opposite of you. According to him the rifles from the Sirius Patrol still had the original sights, whereas those which had the cut off rear sights (not even speaking of the replacment of it with a M1 Carbine rear sight) were modified by the RGTC for hunters in Greenland and therefore non official modifications.

[Mbechmann]

Well, settled in on the lake in Maine, catching up on this thread.
Very interesting to read about the RGTC rifles and their modifications. The M1 carbine sight looks quite well done.

Yea that sight does look good. Would be interesting to shoot one of those.

You do not show front sight nor rear sight with your rifle that you have posted in here, nor how it was installed or machined. Please share pictures of this.

Within how were the RGTC rifles prepared for scopes?

The rifles that Bisgaard & Nielsen were selling all had the rear sight bases milled off, no provision for a M1 sight such as in your link, and all had an emergency rear sight fitted to the barrel shank. B&N claimed they come from the RGTC.

Another member in here who is also from Denmark said the following:

Link to this post here: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post339206

So basically he is saying the opposite of you. According to him the rifles from the Sirius Patrol still had the original sights, whereas those which had the cut off rear sights (not even speaking of the replacment of it with a M1 Carbine rear sight) were modified by the RGTC for hunters in Greenland and therefore non official modifications.

First, I think the reason why he is saying this, is because he doesnt speak Danish. What I have done, is to compile ALL the Danish info as well as the info in English. When I found another contact/source, I contacted those asking for more info. Through that, I have been talking to the guy that handled these rifles back than. Thats the main source for most of my info and the info I did have prior to this, he confirmed it.
Add to that, that there is an article on rifleman about these, written in Danish where another Danish guy mentions this as well. The rifleman info is from 2020, so this is fairly recent. All in all, I am sorry, but he is wrong about this.

Secondly, the scopes. The Bisgaard & Nielsen rifles are the RGTC rifles, that were milled down on the rear sight yes. But thats not all. I have seen 2 close up pictures of these rifles that were welded on the inside, so I think they were widened as well. As I mentioned earlier, I dont have a RGTC rifle, so I cant compare side by side. I am going on info from the guy who handled this - and he his connection with the company in Aalborg that did this.
What is interesting here is that M1 sight... Thats a company here in Denmark that are doing that change right now. But they can ONLY do it on RGTC rifles (called Greenlandic rifles here in Denmark). I dont know exactly why that is, but I would think its because its wider than normal m1917 rear sights. I have reached out to that company to find out what it is that they do exactly to fit the M1 sight on it.

Thirdly, the company that milled the Sirius rifles is a different company than the RGTC rifles. The Sirius ones were done at Otterup/Schultz Larsen. This is also confirmed by 2 different sources here in Denmark.

The biggest difference on the sights, is actually the front sight. 85000 rifles in Denmark were changed to the roller pin front sight in December 1960. The RGTC rifles were shipped to Greenland in 1961, so they were ALL roller pin. Now, if you do the math, you will realize that 85000 changed rifles... well the numbers ONLY line up if it was ALL that was changed. Denmark received 38395 from Canada + 23000 from Norway + spare barrels. Denmark didnt receive any rifles from anywhere else. So it had to be ALL Danish rifles and spare barrels that was in Denmark on December 1960 that were changed to roller pin front sight. This is also confirmed here.

Mine has the old sight, so it had to have been shipped prior to the sight change. The only rifles that was shipped prior to that, was the 40 Sirius rifles and they were shipped July 12th 1960. This is also confirmed by several different sources here in Denmark.

As for pictures. For some reason this site changed over to mobile site, so I couldnt get it back to normal again so I could upload pictures. Sorry for the delay.

All in all, I hope this clears up things a bit more.

[Mbechmann]

Attachment 117729
Attachment 117728
Attachment 117727

Does this work now?

[pickax]

Yes, pictures are showing perfectly.

[Promo]

The Bisgaard & Nielsen rifles are the RGTC rifles, that were milled down on the rear sight yes. But thats not all. I have seen 2 close up pictures of these rifles that were welded on the inside, so I think they were widened as well. As I mentioned earlier, I dont have a RGTC rifle, so I cant compare side by side. I am going on info from the guy who handled this - and he his connection with the company in Aalborg that did this.

All of the rifles that B&N sold on eGun are with sights EXACTLY as on your rifle that you (/user Mbechmann for you) posted two posts above. There simply is no difference. I've once owned one of these rifles and can fully confirm this from first hand.

Exactly THESE rifles were those where user "lgo", who is from Denmark and therefore also a native speaker, had said that those were hunter conversions by the RGTC.

And just my thoughts: over here any soldier who carved his stock (post WWII) would be in serious trouble. Also if the fact that an ammo pouch was permanentely affixed to the stock would result in the same situation. In my opinion it however would make sense a hunter would do this. It is his personal rifle and he can do whatever he is happy with. And they might need more ammo and preferrably carry it directly where they need it. I'd therefore assume yours is also one of the hunter conversions outcarried by the RGTC, whereas the Sirius Dog Sled Patrol (also according to the few pictures I was able to find) had carried the M1917 rifles with the original sights.