Flanders mud flaps, post WW1 use.

[Roger Payne]

Here are my two, as mentioned above. I took a speculative punt with a chap known to me at a French arms fair on the Somme fifteen or so years ago, but went into it knowing all the possibilities. It would be nice if the consensus said they were genuine, but I shan't cry into my beer if they are not.

Bitterly disappointed M&S means Myers & Son. I have been looking out for one in the hope that they were made by Marks & Spencers.......

[mrclark303]

Obvious fakes I'm afraid Roger, I'll take them both off your hands though....

They look good to me, a few more to add to the database. Many thanks for sharing Roger...

So experts, do Rogers and 5th Batts get a clean bill of health?

[Alan de Enfield]

I’d never seen these before this tread. Makes sense given the horrific conditions of trench warfare but just wondering what happens if the rifle is fired with the door closed?

This is the text from the advert of one of the repro-sellers :

PLEASE NOTE; Although these covers would offer little resistance to a bullet and it is likely that in emergencies many rifles were fired with them in the closed position, they none-the-less pose a very real potential threat to safety should a live or blank round be fired through them in the closed position, in the form of either a deflected shot or the possibility that the cover would fracture and present a hazard from flying debris. It is therefore STRONGLY recommended that these are NOT fitted to live firing rifles. DS Solutions will not accept any liability under any circumstances should you choose to do so and ignore this warning advice..

[Alan de Enfield]

Here are my two, as mentioned above. I took a speculative punt with a chap known to me at a French arms fair on the Somme fifteen or so years ago, but went into it knowing all the possibilities. It would be nice if the consensus said they were genuine, but I shan't cry into my beer if they are not.

Bitterly disappointed M&S means Myers & Son. I have been looking out for one in the hope that they were made by Marks & Spencers.......

I have heard of, but never seen the French Reproductions (the J&P ones are manufactured in the Phillipines) your pictures meet the description I have had of the French repros, particularly the crows foot which is 'wrong'

[Roger Payne]

Yes, I noticed that when I bought them Alan, but whilst it is supportive of them being 'wrong' I've seen plenty of indisputably original kit with appallingly stamped broad arrows, Enfield examiner's marks, & so on. If I had to jump one way or the other I would lean towards them being reproductions, but it would be nice to find someone who knows with a degree of certainty.

Under normal circumstances I see the French chap periodically & have done a couple of deals with him. When he saw my SMLE wire breaker that I had just picked up he almost dislocated my shoulder trying to prise it out of me! No doubt if I'd weakened he would soon have added another item to his range of products.

[bigduke6]

The easiest way to to tell is the last bit in the assembly, the spring......... the wire and diameter will tell the original from a fake..... always look outside the box.

[mrclark303]

Interesting Geoff, so what are we looking for with the wire mate?

---------- Post added at 01:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 AM ----------

So.... Does anyone have clear close up images of definitive original examples?

How about 5th Batts example Alan, original, or in the Milsurps repro flap club too?

[Alan de Enfield]

Attachment 118594Attachment 118593

How about 5th Batts example Alan, original, or in the Milsurps repro flap club too?

What makes me dubious about Roger's 'crows foot' is that all of the crows foot marking I have seen have had the 'toes' as single lines, whilst this one is like an outline drawing (two lines for each toe). Roger is far more experienced than I and will have seen 1000's more crows feet markings that I have - Roger -have you seen this marking used before ?




I do not claim to be an expert on these things as I have not seen enough of them, or found documentary evidence, to be able to draw any conclusions.

However, mine was sold to me as original, and assuming it is then I'd suggest that so is 5thBatt's flap,

They are pretty much identical markings but on 5th's the crows-foot is not vertical - maybe the guy with the stamps was just in a rush to get out for a smoke break ?


5thBatt's Flap and my flap side by side and Rogers 'double line' crows foot.

Mine has a lightly struck "S" whilst 5th's has a lightly struck "M", possibly the stamp was not held completely flat during the striking ?

[Roger Payne]

I have little doubt that both yours Alan, & 5th Batt's are genuine. There are various things to consider, not just the maker's mark or the broad arrow. It is very difficult to convincingly fake natural age. I'm less convinced about my own!

[bigduke6]

Interesting Geoff, so what are we looking for with the wire mate?

---------- Post added at 01:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:06 AM ----------

So.... Does anyone have clear close up images of definitive original examples?

How about 5th Batts example Alan, original, or in the Milsurps repro flap club too?

Morning John, back when they were made it was all imperial, so the spring wire and the mandrel it was formed on would be imperial too, probably very hard to tell but I would guess the spring would have more beef on it than a Modern replacement, also the hinge pin or even the gauge of steel.
Like anything repro or fake they all have a flaw or two,