Where did they go!

[Daan Kemp]

Shotguns have a very specific use in warfare. The main problem is size and weight of ammunition, then the range. The shotgun ammo you can carry easily can't even closely compare with an SMG or rifle.

You don't easily find images of shotgun being used in combat. Even then for very specific use. Eg bush or jungle stops shot quickly, little penetration.

You will be hard pressed to find shotguns in the table of equipment of a combat unit.

[CINDERS]

Even so they found a place in the WWI trenches where the trenches were not much more that a 100 yds apart and often at night stunts were done, Germans that faced the Model 97 were appalled at the damage it inflicted on the soldiers infact complained it violated the Hague convention.
The 9 lead balls from the buckshot was an extremely good man stopper where accuracy may not have been a critical factor, against massed troops or in clearing a trench the shock factor of seeing your mate ripped apart from the shotgun would have certainly put the wind up allot of the enemy.
These are the conflicts the Model 97 has been involved in with various United States Armed Services; Philippine–American War, Mexican–American Border War, World War I, Irish War of independence, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam War.

We've all owned shotguns, I've used SG's (9 pellets) in my SKB Auto (Now banned) on pigs and it fairly flattens them through heavy brush and in very thick bull rushes where the range was down to mere feet certainly put the wind up me hunting them in their runs crawling up along them.
I only ever attempted that lark once not a good plan!

I have a 12 Ga cartridge belt that may possible be from the conflict will get it out with some pics perhaps the forum members here will be able to tell think it carries 25 rounds in brass holders with a belt & two shoulder straps there is a patent pending on it think is like 1890 something may be later.
Anyway that's tomorrows thing to share.

[Daan Kemp]

Need some evidence of military use, eg how often used, when and for what kind of activities, what worked and what didn't, what kind of ammo, etc. Probably for raids and similar close up work.

Should be a mix of rifle and shotgun in a raid. Photos of use in WWI would be nice, haven't seen any ever but then I haven't been looking. Sounds interesting.

Wonder where this would be easily available?

[CINDERS]

Had a quick look and found these;

[Daan Kemp]

WWI?

I wonder what the thinking was, where/when/how, etc. You have to be very sure why you are using shotguns because your opposition will outgun you with magazine size, etc. Will have to do some research.

[browningautorifle]

I wonder what the thinking was, where/when/how, etc.

Here's an article, it doesn't get too far into it and answers your pointed question. I always understood it was because of the close quarters usually encountered in WW1 they had brought these forward. This confirms their thought process... The 1918 Shotgun Protest

[CINDERS]

Thanks Jim, the article clearly outlines how lethal the shotgun was with a 9 foot width and a 3 foot vertical spread was enough to take out multiple personnel with penetration of a 2" plank at 150 yards from the muzzle with plenty of energy remaining to do damage.
From my foggy head in an article long ago it stated with a good few of these in a trench having 5 cartridges in each shotgun loaded with 9 pellets in each round and plenty of cartridges at hand they inflicted grievous losses on the waves of advancing German soldiers.

So here are the pics of the cartridge holder I have as I am not sure if it is WWI war related or an early sporting rig the only markings on the leather is on the waist belt tail and just says 50 !
On the brass shell holders of which it has 20 are the following;

PAT APR 16 - 78

P & J SERENA ILL (Which I surmise stands for Illinois)

Note ~ the shell holders also have a bottom plate so the shells cannot slip and fall out the bottom of say from a loose holder.

[browningautorifle]

P & J SERENA ILL

Pooler & Jones Serena Illinois... Those are duckhunter's belts. The ammo at the time had issues that included paper cartridges being unsuitable for field use because they would take wet and swell. The brass was the only way to go. These belts would expose ammo to harsh conditions. I'd rather use a side bag or ammo pouch than one of these. They issued a pouch with loops that I'm pretty sure you're familiar with.

[Daan Kemp]

The claims in the Scientific American article for the shotgun is blatantly based on imagination. And various of the claims mentioned in later newspaper articles is stretching the imagination to say the least.

That the shotgun was effective is undoubtedly so. However, if it was that good we would have seen hundreds if not thousands of the shotguns in surplus, as well as whole battalions issued with them. Nobody assaults a position with a shotgun, many might use it in defence, close quarters combat, house clearing, etc. Even there high capacity rifle or SMGs are the norm.

[CINDERS]

We are talking 19th century tactics as that is what basically WWI was assaulting positions with massed formations but against 20th century weapons point is they used them the rifle had its place for longer ranges plus armies of the world were equipped with them.
The army of the day once the proposal was made for the modified 97's was green lit even though late in the war got them over to the troops, in those conditions where allot of battles were up close and personal I'd want something that may drop 3 of the enemy per shot rather than a single round for one hit.

I mean they were still using clubs and trench knives with knuckle dusters on them, thing is the decision was made the shotty's modified and the enemy was sorted as that is the Art of War defeat your adversary as the Germans lost the plot when they started using the saw back, gas and flame throwers.

Jim do you know what era these were made 30's - 40's or later just so I know. Thx bloke.