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  1. #1
    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    Where did they go!

    I was just graze reading Hatchers book on the Garandicon development and came across an interesting piece.
    It was between Pedersen, Garand, Bang & Colt and apparently according to the book they had 500,000 Pedersen receivers and 69 million .276 rounds ready for delivery in 1919.
    So the war finished in '18 to which the govt scrapped the order for the rifles given the rarity of these rifles and ammo then what happened to it all.

    Half a million receivers I guess not being completed rifles got the chopped up but 69 million rounds of ammo well that's a good deal of crackers.
    They certainly designed the Garand rifle for the troops at the pointy end.
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    Legacy Member RCS's Avatar
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    Cinders, you are talking about two different cartridges, the Pedersen cartridges ready for delivery in 1919 was called the Pedersen 30-18 (7,65x20),
    and used a device inserted into a modified M1903 rifle with a magazine holding 40 rds. By the early 1930's all these Pedersen devices were scrapped
    with the cartridges. The M1903 rifles were converted back to normal issue.

    The 276 cartridge was developed by Mr Pedersen in the 1920's for his rifle design which used a breech mechanism somewhat like the Germanicon Luger
    and required a special lubricant on the cartridge. John Garandicon's early design also used the 276 Pedersen on a ten round clip

    Later it was decided to continue using the 30-06 and Garand's design was modified to use this cartridge but the Pedersen design could not be used.

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    Legacy Member RCS's Avatar
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    Pedersen Device also used on other rifles

    Besides the Model 1903 rifle, the Pedersen Device was also developed to be used on the Model 1917 rifle and Remington manufactured Mosin-Nagant rifle. These rifles were only being tested with the Pedersen Device.

    I do not understand why they thought at the time (1917) that the 32 ACP or 30-18 Pedersen cartridge was an improvement over the standard cartridges used in battle ?Attachment 120166Attachment 120167Attachment 120168

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    Legacy Member Fushigi Ojisan's Avatar
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    It was a proto-assault rifle


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    Legacy Member RCS's Avatar
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    276 Pedersen cartridge

    I was looking for some photos of a 276 Pedersen cartridge (most are headstamped F A 29)
    and found a few photos.

    Looking back, even if the US Army adopted the 276 cartridge as an infantry rifle, would they have converted the Browning Model 1917A1 water cooled m/g to 276 caliber and the BAR Model 1918 ? I doubt it.


    photo showsAttachment 120169 7,62x51 NATO and 276 Pedersen

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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    The 276 had a pronounced body taper to aid in its extraction from the chamber after firing.

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    Advisory Panel Lee Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCS View Post
    Besides the Model 1903 rifle, the Pedersen Device was also developed to be used on the Model 1917 rifle and Remington manufactured Mosin-Nagant rifle. These rifles were only being tested with the Pedersen Device.

    I do not understand why they thought at the time (1917) that the 32 ACP or 30-18 Pedersen cartridge was an improvement over the standard cartridges used in battle ?Attachment 120166Attachment 120167Attachment 120168
    "Walking Fire" was the term of the day.

    The intention was to install the Pederson device into every rifle, then go "over the top" out of the trenches and fire from the hip while advancing to the enemy.

    It would have been interesting to see - but I suspect the Germans would have used their Maxims to good effect.

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    Legacy Member RCS's Avatar
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    Also of interest, the Frenchicon adopted the 30-18 Pedersen cartridge for their Model 1935A pistol and MAS 38 smg.

    The 276 Pedersen could still be used today in the AR-15 type weapons, with improved powder and bullets.

    I heard that when US forces entered Germanyicon after WW1, they found a complete Model 1903 rifle with Pedersen Device.

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    Legacy Member Eaglelord17's Avatar
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    The reason why they went with the pistol round was at that point in time it wasn't really technologically feasible to make a full powered semi-auto rifle (exemptions being the RSC 1917 and 1918 which were very complex rifles). For the ranges most of WWI was fought in a pistol cartridge wasn't necessarily a bad thing. It also as a .30 cal cartridge was able to be used in a standard .30 cal barrel without issue, which the intent on the Americans side was to have them use the rifles in .30-06 until the signal was given, then insert the bolt adapter and magazines for the pistol cartridge and overwhelm the Germanicon line (in theory).

    Biggest improvement was simply amount of firepower. Would it have rolled up the German lines like they expected? Who knows, but if they worked decently (no idea if they did or didn't). It would be a substantial increase in portable firepower, which when you consider the Shotgun was a big deal, might have actually played a large role in trench clearing.

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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    Yes the Germans were very much aware by experience exactly the sort of devastation the Mod 97 trench shotgun could inflict whether assaulting a trench or protecting it firing 00 Buckshot made short work of the enemy at those combat ranges.
    I think I read in one of my books that if you were captured with a shotgun then your chances of survival were very slim indeed similar to Hitler's infamous Commando Directive of WWII.

    In the end the Garandicon proved to be the superior weapons platform and for the U.S is rightly regarded as a war winning rifle for their campaigns as the Lee Enfield did for the Commonwealth forces and their campaigns.

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