Model 41 Carcano question.

[LTPayton88]

Hello,

I was in the process of researching my M41 Carcano rifle when I came across some information that didnt seem to make sense to me. I have searched the internet and I have used the excellent book "The model 1891 Carcano rifle" by Giovanni Chegia, Alberto Simonelli, and Ralph Riccio. The issue I found is with the manufacturer and the serial number on the rifle. you can see both in the photos below. The manufacturers were given blocks of serial numbers to run and with my particular rifle the manufacturer is marked as Terni but the serial number falls in the Armaguerra manufacturing block. My question is how would this happen and has anyone seen it on their rifles. It cant just be mismatched parts because both markings are on the barrel right next to each other. You can see in the picture that I took of the serial number ranges from the book mentioned above that the QTXXXX serial number range is not found under the Terni manufacture. Plus the Terni stamp says this rifle was manufactured in 1941 but that serial number is listed as 1943. Thanks for any insight.

Edit: I have added a few more pictures to the ones below. I was advised to check under the wood line for any additional dates and markings but it turns out there is very little to go off of there as well. This is completely unlike the other 5 carcanos I own. They are all covered in markings. Thanks again.

Information

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[LTPayton88]

A few additional pictures of under the receiver.

[Ovidio]

Very nice rifle!
Armaguerra marked the rifles until January/February 1943. After that date, they might be without Armaguerra markings.
Why it has FAT markings... I really don't know. But I can ask a few much more knowledgeable people than me.
Hope to be able to help soon.

[LTPayton88]

Any assistance would be much appreciated. Yea this one has me scratching my head. Thanks.

[Ovidio]

Hi LT,


there is a bit of discussion about this rifle here.
It does not fit the information we have about normal production markings, but there a a few hypothesis from Maistrak, a guy who writes on our Italian Milsurp blog: "exordinanza".

He put it this way, and, after thinking it over, I tend to agree with him:

- serial number of Armaguerra, late production, on a 1941 Terni rifle;

- Terni rifle, repaired by Armaguerra, which marked one of her serial numbers;


or

- Terni rifle that someoned tinkered with to make it look like an Armaguerra;

or

- serial number not from Armaguerra but from a different model (i.e. 91-38) which was transformed in 1941 by FAT, becoming a 91/41. Using a receiver taken from an existing rifle and a new barrel. Considering that 1941 was the first year of the 91/41 model, that might be realistic.
He suggests to look underneath the receiver to see if there is any other serial number, which seems not to be the case looking at your pictures, right?
Another thing he points out is that the Q looks a tad weird, more line an O (I don't agree here, but still, if you add it to the next note...). Also other guys said that usually the serial numbers were marked pretty well on the Armaguerra. Here, the marking is quite "untidy". The Savoia crest and lots of other markings, all do miss.


There is nothing mine here, all knowledge from other guys, whom I like to recognise all the merit of looking into this. But we might get further still. Never give up.

[LTPayton88]

He suggests to look underneath the receiver to see if there is any other serial number, which seems not to be the case looking at your pictures, right?

Thank you for reaching out to others for help. In regards to this, no there is nothing else marked on the receiver under the wood line. The only other thing on the barrel is a "44" marked about half way down the barrel under the wood line. Other than that "44" there are no other markings or numbers.

---------- Post added at 07:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 AM ----------

Q looks a tad weird, more line an O

I should have included a better picture here but in person it is definitely a "Q". It is also marked on the stock. I do agree that the serial number looks untidy but I would argue it is the placement of the "T" that throws it off. I could see where this could have been Q 1728 but my issue here is the space between the Q and the 1728. On all the other Carcanos and Vetterlis I own there is not as pronounced a space between the letter prefix and the serial number.
Now that I think about the possibility of it originally being Q 1728 that doesn't match up either as that Serial would fall into 1942 production and it is clearly marked "FAT 41".