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Thread: 1898 Krag with "E 21" on the buttstock

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  1. #11
    Member Alex.California's Avatar
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    Thanks -- its looking great now that it has been cleaned further and the finish has settled into a more normal color for its age than when I first took off the urethane. I have two boxes of ammunition on the way, and will follow your advice on disassembling it to be able to clean it properly prior to taking it to the range.
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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Chuck in Denver ... Buy-Sell-Trade .. Guns, Cars Motorcycles Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #12
    Really Senior Member butlersrangers's Avatar
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    Enjoy your Kragicon! It likely saw use, back in the day, on the Sea Girt Range in New Jersey.

    Last edited by butlersrangers; 10-23-2021 at 12:12 AM.

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    Contributing Member rcathey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butlersrangers View Post
    the Sea Girt Range
    Is that where they did the testing with Trapdoors? Shooting some ridiculous distance?


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  7. #14
    Really Senior Member butlersrangers's Avatar
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    I don't know about the testing of Model 1873 Springfield Rifles. After Creedmore Range in New York was closed down, Sea Girt, New Jersey became quite the Hot Bed of U.S. Rifle Shooting.

    Most of the early National Matches, starting in 1903, were held there, until Camp Perry opened around 1907-08.

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    Really Senior Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcathey View Post
    Shooting some ridiculous distance?
    As experience and knowledge catches up with us, I often wonder what the purpose of military rifle sights beyond 300meters was. What was the purpose except for competition? I know about volley firing at extreme distances but examples are rare. And claiming adjusting 'windage' as an essential to military rifle sights is clearly a contradiction to teaching riflemen to aim off for wind.

    I haven't researched this but examples of planned combat rifle use past about 200meters is rare, that is why we have machineguns and mortars.

    Anybody have facts for this? Opinions welcome, but facts would be nice.

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    Contributing Member rcathey's Avatar
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    I was mistaken. This testing was performed on a beach at Sandy Hook:

    http://usarmorment.com/pdf/45-70.pdf

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  11. #17
    Really Senior Member butlersrangers's Avatar
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    IIRC - During some South African War battles, 'Boer' Riflemen inflicted very heavy casualties and 'pinned down' massed Britishicon Troops with accurate long range fire, likely at 500 to 1,000 yards.
    In some situations, the clever 'Boers' prepared the 'battlefield', by marking the approaches to their positions with seemingly discarded tin pie-plates, accurately marking the distances at 100 yard intervals.

    With accurate & well sighted model 1893 Mausers, quality 7mm ammo, open ground with marked ranges, it is easy to imagine how skilled shooters in good defensive positions could "Rain Hell" on massed infantry.

    British Infantry rifles from the earliest Lee-Metfords to pre-WW1 Short Magazine Lee-Enfields and Pattern 1914 Enfields carried long range auxiliary 'volley sights'. I am not aware if these 'off-set' sights were ever used effectively.
    They were later dispensed with during war-time manufacture and later removed during FTR/rebuilding.

    Improvements and changes in machinegun use and artillery tactics did much to make what once seemed good ideas with rifle sights seem rather silly.

    BTW - This thread started with a Kragicon-Jorgensen rifle. It should be mentioned that a number of Scandinavian arms were equipped with 'volley sights'. This would apply to arms like the Danishicon Rolling-Block rifles. Some of the proto-type Krag-Jorgensen rifles also contained this feature.

    Springfield Armory has Krag-Jorgensen rifle, serial #100, which is believed to be "Krag-Jorgensen test rifle #5". This rifle design was further refined and adopted, as U.S. magazine rifle - Model of 1892.
    The prototype rifle, serial number 100, has an off-set notch on the rear-sight 'slide' and a 'blade' on the front barrel-band. (Unfortunately, the Springfield Armory proto-type rifle has its front barrel-band on backwards, so the auxiliary 'blade' is on the wrong side of the rifle).

    The original rear-sight used on the U.S. model 1892 magazine-rifle, (Krag-Jorgensen), has a lot of metal on the right-end of the elevation 'slide'. IMHO - This is a vestige from the proto-type sight, that was 'notched' in this area to serve as a volley-fire sight.
    It is noteworthy that the U.S. did not utilize 'off-set' volley sights on their arms, but, came to relish and celebrate long-range target matches, like the Palma Match.


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    Very interesting. As I happen to have it right here, here's a pic of the sight for a 1894 St Denis Mauser that was re-configured by the Frenchicon for the Uraguayan army (if I'm not mistaken).

    It has the ladder sights on it and interestingly, when laid down, the different positions of the slider will set the sight at what looks like the different levels below the 9 on the ladder.
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    Really Senior Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
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    Butlersrangers
    True, the Boer were riflemen used to small group fighting and no or minimum casualties. Therefore, longer distances to keep them away. Engaging the enemy at a distance and then withdrawing not to commit forces. Lots of individual thinking and action. The long distance formal battles were the exception.
    On the other hand the Britishicon were very much used to massed columns and squares in battle. Volleys fired on command, little individual shooting. Took them some years to partially adapt.
    Two very different cultures meeting on the battlefield.
    Still wondering what mad the powers that be decide on the massive distances required for rifle sights. There must have been some creative unthinking with widely unrelated conclusions based on hearsay facts to decide on that.

  14. #20
    Senior Member donki1967's Avatar
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    I allow myself to post some photos of my KJ, also dated 1902...

    there are two things in common between yours and mine!

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