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  1. #1
    Contributing Member METT-T's Avatar
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    1899 Carbine 348xxx

    New acquisition and my first Kragicon. Bore looks really good, only mark on the stock is a 45 stamped behind the trigger guard. I've done some reading and think it looks good but what do I know? Rear sight has all the Cs but I don't see a C marking anywhere on the blade and it looks short, but then the pin looks like it's been there for a while. Let me know if there's anything I need to take a photo of that I missed. Thanks in advance for any comments!

    Attachment 122057Attachment 122056Attachment 122055Attachment 122054Attachment 122053Attachment 122052
    Last edited by METT-T; 12-15-2021 at 09:56 PM.

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    Contributing Member METT-T's Avatar
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    Well, I guess I timed this post pretty poorly, put it up right before the site went down. I imagine the original photos will likely reappear at some point but I'm anxious to hear some opinions so I'll throw them up here again.


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    Contributing Member METT-T's Avatar
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    After several days of staring at this front sight blade I'm beginning to imagine I can see the outline of where a "C" stamp once was, not doubt worn away during numerous mounted pursuits of Moro rebels.

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    Legacy Member rvan84's Avatar
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    I'm no expert but I believe I might be able to see a "C" as well on the blade. Located to the rear of the pin and almost to the top of the blade.

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    Contributing Member METT-T's Avatar
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    Good to hear! Maybe I'm not hallucinating. I took about a dozen pictures in different lighting but none are conclusive.

    I also now see the remains of a Circle P on the bottom of the stock wrist. Amazing the things I don't notice. Still nothing that looks like it may have been a cartouche tho.

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    Legacy Member butlersrangers's Avatar
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    'METT-T' - Your Kragicon, #348676, was manufactured as a U.S. model 1899 carbine around September 1901.
    You have a correct model 1901 carbine rear-sight and the handguard with sight-protecting 'hump'. Initially, your carbine likely had the same handguard as used on the model 1898 infantry rifles, with the 1901 'Buffington' designed sight.
    The carbine handguard with the 'lump' was approved around April 1902.

    Lots of model 1899 carbines were updated with the 'sight-protecting handguard' when they were returned to the Armory for 'refurbishing'.
    During Armory/Arsenal repair or rebuilding of a Krag, new replacement stocks were often put on. New replacement stocks would not have an 'acceptance cartouche' stamped on them.

    The stock would receive the 'circled P' stamp at the Armory or Arsenal, indicating the rebuilt arm was 'proofed' and function tested.

    Your Krag front-sight base appears to have been put on the barrel by a gunsmith or hobbyist, after it entered private hands.
    The brazing is very crude and the muzzle-crown does not look correct.

    It is possible that your carbine had a poor bore when it got into civilian hands. A good rifle barrel may have been cut to 22" length and the front-sight was salvage and brazed on.
    Another possibility is the original carbine barrel could have had its issue sight removed and a commercial 'banded' sight was put on. At a later time, someone may have brazed on a salvaged Krag base in a restoration effort.

    There were about 32 major operations in the manufacture of a Krag barrel. Springfield Armory machined a dovetail across the barrel-blank and bronze-brazed a small block of steel in the dovetail, about 1/2 way into the production of the barrel.

    This 'lug' was used to locate many of the following machine operations on the barrel. Eventually the lug was shaped and slotted to become the finished front-sight base. The dovetail and brazing seam become nearly invisible.

    Your front-sight attachment is not Springfield Armory work.

    Your front sight-blade may have a faint small "C". When taken out of its base, the 1899 carbine blade is .355" tall. A 'loose' 1898 rifle blade is .413" tall.

    Attached is a copy of your front-sight photo. I have marked what I see as a possible "C" stamp and also the crude brazing.

    Also attached are photos showing a correct front sight attachment and a closeup of the carbine blade.

    Attachment 122308

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    Contributing Member METT-T's Avatar
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    Very interesting! Thank you, I greatly appreciate your taking the time to explain so clearly.

    I guess now the question is whether it's the original barrel. I would've never suspected the barrel had been replaced, the finish and bore look consistent with the wear on the rest of the gun, but the crown now looks a bit "sharp" compared to the reference pics. I'll take some pictures of the crown when I get home.
    Last edited by METT-T; 12-21-2021 at 10:08 AM.

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    Here's the muzzle. As you can see there are nicks and scratches and coloration that looks like the rest of the barrel and the rest of the gun, so it never occurred to me it might be cut off and recrowned. The barrel is exactly 22". If there was a barrel band it didn't leave any mark or difference in the wear that I can make out.



    And here's the chamber end if that's at all helpful.

    Last edited by METT-T; 12-21-2021 at 12:11 PM.

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    It is not a bad looking job, but your muzzle-crown and front-sight attachment look "non-Armory" to me.

    All of the finish has been removed from your front-sight blade and the cross-pin is flattened, so things have obviously been taken apart after it became civilian property.

    Cleaning the 'brazing' will show clearly the quality of the front base attachment. Springfield Armory work made the front-base appear to be 'part of the barrel'.

    The 22" barrel-length is arrived at by measuring with a cleaning-rod, inserted at the muzzle and coming to rest against the 'closed' bolt-face.

    FWIW - I have a model 1899 carbine action that has a barrel with a 'banded' commercial front-sight. If measured on the outside the barrel appears to be 22 inches long, but when measured with a rod, it is 22 and 1/8 inches long.
    This reveals the barrel to actually be a shortened Kragicon rifle barrel.
    Last edited by butlersrangers; 12-21-2021 at 12:51 PM.

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    Contributing Member METT-T's Avatar
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    I came up with 22" via the described method yesterday. I'll remeasure, but I think regardless you're spot on. The shoulder between the crown and the barrel is more abrupt than anything I've been able to find in photos and there's a sharp edge you can feel. The Armory cut appears to be slightly radiused in all the pictures I can find.

    http://kragcollectorsassociation.org...carbines05.jpg

    Seems a little unique in that whomever did this, either removing the barrel band and installing the front sight or starting from scratch with a rifle barrel, took pains to make it look "originalish" many decades ago. Either way would've meant cutting a new dovetail, right?

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