Revisited, The Rifle No. 5 Mark 2

[Lance]

The Rifle No. 5 Mk 2 (D5E171/X/8) revisited. Newly acquired for my collection, I have been on the hunt for one for a while as this rifle is a unique part of the Lee-Enfield history.

From what has been written in “The Lee-Enfield” the D5E171/X/8 rifle program was an experimentation in strengthening the body for grenade launching trials and either directly or indirectly trying to eliminate the “wandering zero” of the Rifle No. 5 Mark I. It was also the initial trial on the body mounted trigger which in 1949 would result in the Rifle No. 4 Mark 2, 1/2, and 1/3.

It has been stated that 50 of these rifles were ordered, however based on observed serial numbers it appears that around 100 were manufactured if the numbers of the rifles were sequential. The lowest serial number encountered is my example, BB1402, with the highest BB1479 just selling at auction this week (I was outbid, but I did not try too hard). The “BB” serial number block was used in the standard Mark I production but I have only found examples as low as BB3XXX.

These “Mark 2” rifles are stated to be conversions of standard Mark I bodies but upon examination, it appears that the body modifications were machined out of the rough body forging and not welded and machined. If they were modified by welding and machining my naked eye cannot pick up any signs of this occurring.

As you can see in the pictures the triangular support added helps spread the shock load to a greater area of the butt socket body area, in later No. 4 Mark 2s this addition is mostly removed. This triangular support resulted in a significant amount of the fore-end being removed with the rear fore-end tie-plate. A cross screw was added for fore-end stability which is larger than the forward trigger guard screw.

The trigger guard for these Mark 2 rifles were of new manufacture as the shape was changed to help with some of the shock load distribution to the fore-end itself. Just the rear portion of the guard is different and is shown with a standard No. 5 Mark I for comparison.

The overall condition of this rifle appears to be un-issued which is similar to most of the other examples observed.

The accessories for the Mark 2 are harder to locate than the rifle itself. One advanced collector has a complete system, myself I only have one component of the sight assembly.

If any other collectors have an example outside of the 1402-1479 serial number range please let me know. For comparison the link below is for capt14k’s example he posted 4 years ago.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=65818&page=1

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Alan de Enfield]

There appears to be several very different rifles that are all noted as being No5 Mk2

One other type is :

The No5 Mk1 rifle had, however, one big fault : it was not easy to keep correctly sighted, and suffered from what was known as “wandering Zero”. This was a serious defect and many attempts were made to eradicate it. Trials were carried out with different forms of stocking up and a Mk2 pattern was eventually developed, with which further trials carried out in 1945 and 1946. In the new pattern the stock fore-end and hand-guard were extended to within about ½” of the rear of the flash eliminator, and the rear end of the fore-end was strengthened by a screw and nut. The band was positioned about three inches further forward to secure the lengthened fore-end and butt. The Mk2 never went into production, and it was eventually decided that the cause of the “wandering zero” was inherent in the design of the weapon and not the result of movement of unseasoned woodwork as had been suspected. The decision not to retain the No5 rifle in British service was made in July 1947 and it was declared obsolescent.

From : “The Lee Enfield Rifle” by Major EGB Reynolds.

Then there is the paratroop No5 Mk2 which had a 'breakdown' stock where the Butt 'clicked' in / out of a socket to make it a shorter weapon, another varient had the butt slide down a dovetail joint to lock in position.

"BreakeyP" has several different varients of the No5 Mk2, maybe he will post some pics and details.

I think he has 6 or 7 very different No5 Mk2 rifles.

[smle addict]

Hello again, Lance. Nice rifle! If you look on page two of the link to 14k's thread, you will see a post from Thunderbox who says he has one of these trials rifles, serial # BB86**. That serial is higher than mine, and much higher than the BB14** examples.

[Promo]

Lance, maybe you are aware of it, but Bob Faris had ".303 Rifle No. 5 with Hung Trigger", serial E6. Ian described it "[..] This B.S.A. rifle was used to assess strengthened action for grenade launching and to mount trigger on the body, removing it from the trigger guard" as well as "Predecessor to D5E 171/X/8 project".Also Bob Faris had BB 1427 No. 5 Mk.II.


Since Alan brought it up, Bob Faris also had what Ian called ".303 Rifle No. 5 Mk I, with Repro Long Fore-end & Butt" and described as "Recreation of the No. 5 Mk II, p. 168 in E.G.B. Reynolds 'The Lee-Enfield Rifle'", only to write one line lower "Long fore-end? We found nothing to confirm this model. An east coast collector built it after reading Reynolds' book. With original No. 5 rifle furniture, a nice piece again!"

[Terry Hawker]

Lance,

As my collecting interests changed over time, it has been a number of years since I last participated here, but your post just sent me down to the safes and prompted this response.

My example, purchased in November of 1993 at the much lamented Great Western Gun Show in Pomona, California, will bump up your current highest 1400-range serial number a couple of notches. BB1498 now has the correct grenade projector, as well as the clamp-on grenade launching sight, but I will not be holding my breath waiting to find the slip-on recoil pad.

[Lance]

Thanks for the update, I hope I did not reactivate the uncontrollable desire to buy more Enfields!!

[Terry Hawker]

Lance,

Not so sure about that, but you have awoken the joy of digging out things in the collection I haven't looked at in years.
Thought perhaps others may also be interested to see the Energa grenade projector and sight designed for these rifles. Attached (hopefully!), are some photos I took after I finally found the projector some six years ago. At the time of that little photo shoot I celebrated by including various other odds and ends made exclusively for the No. 5 Rifle.

[Lance]

Excellent collection of accessories thanks for posting. I'm actively hunting for kit for mine but I am not holding my breath!!

[Surpmil]

Very interesting photos. Some careful hand fitting of that forend around the rear face by the look of it. Almost looks like the sides of the forend are a bit fuller than normal from the front of the mag recess back(?)

Hard to see those little pieces lasting long before splitting off, and even the enlarged cross-bolt head couldn't prevent splitting in the forend sides.

Raw cable tightened across the woodwork!? Yikes. Those would have had a leather wrap sewn on in olden times.

[Terry Hawker]

Surpmil,

Good observations.

Being the very condition-anal collector I was back then (actually made the horrible mistake of turning down a Ross Mk III sniper with Warner & Swasey telescope because it had a minor ding on the muzzle and the rubber eye cap was perished!), I was not happy to see that old crack radiating from the the cross-bolt, but as scarce as I knew these rifles to be, bought it anyway. Thought my chances of seeing another example any time soon were pretty slim, but oddly enough, at the next Pomona show another turned up - with a worse crack than mine! Haven't seen another example since, but suspect that this was another flaw in the design.

You can imagine how gingerly I did up that raw cable to take those photos. That sight hasn't been on the rifle since.