Unusual M38 stock?

[1903Collector]

I recently purchased a rather nice looking and apparently matching 1943 M38 Mosin Nagant. I need help with a couple of differences in the forward section of the stock. The stock is different from than what I can find on line and from the stocks of my four other Russian/Soviet WWI & WWII Mosin Nagants (1905 M91, 1934 1891, 1945 M44, and 1940 1891 Scoped Sniper).

Based upon the descriptions below I would like to know whether my M38 stock is a known variant, a war expedient or cost reduced version, or something else?



Unusual features
No lower or upper band springs;
No upper sling slot (there is one at the butt stock)

General:
Good quality wood and construction;
NOT an M44 stock;
Verified not a Finn replacement stock;
Dark red brown in color;
excellent pinned repair to cracked wrist:
scratches and dents here and there but in remarkably good shape otherwise (both structurally and cosmetically)

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[BVZ24]

East German?

[1903Collector]

stock appears to be the original from 1943. I am also not aware of any east german M38 Mosin Nagants. Did they make replacement stocks at some point?

[Eaglelord17]

So I have no conclusive thoughts on this. Some issues I am noticing are:
1) No second sling swivel, this indicates to me the stock is a cut down stock from something else, the Soviets as far as I am aware always had sling swivels on the stock even if it was just a milled wood slot.
2) It appears to have a screwed in escutcheon on the sling swivel (hard to tell from the photo). This indicates to me the stock had some time taken on it, not some sort of wartime expediency as you wouldn't have bothered spending so much time on one sling swivel and not put the other in.
3) As far as I am aware the Soviets always had the hand guard retainers on their M38 stocks, so this is not a M38 stock
4) The upper handguard appears to be cut down, it is missing the end cap

Basically what I am leaning towards is a Finnish replacement stock, likely made from a combination of parts. If I had to guess the upper handguard is likely a cut down M91/30 handguard, and the stock itself is likely a cut down Finnish M91 rifle stock as it lacks the retainers but still has a sling slot cut in it. This could have simply been done by a average Finn, not necessarily their military as both those parts likely would have been relatively common, but replacement M38 stocks wouldn't have been. All the reading I have done (both in published books and online) has never indicated shortcuts like those that would have been taken on this rifle (though that doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that I have never heard of it).

[1903Collector]

So I have no conclusive thoughts on this. Some issues I am noticing are:
1) No second sling swivel, this indicates to me the stock is a cut down stock from something else, the Soviets as far as I am aware always had sling swivels on the stock even if it was just a milled wood slot.
2) It appears to have a screwed in escutcheon on the sling swivel (hard to tell from the photo). This indicates to me the stock had some time taken on it, not some sort of wartime expediency as you wouldn't have bothered spending so much time on one sling swivel and not put the other in.
3) As far as I am aware the Soviets always had the hand guard retainers on their M38 stocks, so this is not a M38 stock
4) The upper handguard appears to be cut down, it is missing the end cap

Basically what I am leaning towards is a Finnish replacement stock, likely made from a combination of parts. If I had to guess the upper handguard is likely a cut down M91/30 handguard, and the stock itself is likely a cut down Finnish M91 rifle stock as it lacks the retainers but still has a sling slot cut in it. This could have simply been done by a average Finn, not necessarily their military as both those parts likely would have been relatively common, but replacement M38 stocks wouldn't have been. All the reading I have done (both in published books and online) has never indicated shortcuts like those that would have been taken on this rifle (though that doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that I have never heard of it).

Good feedback. You may be correct. I my have been seeing what I wanted to see!

[1903Collector]

SITREP - OK, someone correctly pointed out that the handguard was a cutdown 91/30. The barreled action is has been verified as an M1938 (M1938 has a unique barrel and front and rear sights that cant be mistaken of faked by cutting down a 91/30), and the butt stock sling slot escutcheon (with screws) is correct for an M38.

After partial dis-assembly I have verified that the stock is a cut down early M91 stock (they had no barrel band springs nor the grooves cut into the wood, but also the comb angle at the wrist of an early M91 stock is sharper than the later Dragoon and soviet stocks of all models, which are more rounded, not unlike the same difference between earlier and later 1903 Springfield S-Stocks.) I found that the original upper sling slot hole is nicely obscured by the metal end cap. I havent compared the OAL of the stock to my M44 yet, but Im willing to bet bubba got it right based upon what I saw under the end cap. (SHAME on bubba for doing that to since I have found early M91 stocks to be rare, expensive and hard to find). Therefore, assuming the stock OAL is correct I have a cunning plan. Ive ordered a soviet M38/M44 handguard and the upper and lower band springs from APEX. I have the skills and equipment to cut the holes and grooves for the barrel band springs and escutcheons . It just so happens that I have a couple repro brass butt stock sling slot escutcheons (with screws) that I purchased from Liberty Tree years ago. Ill just have to work to get the color of the exposed wood and the replacement handguard to match the excellent, high quality and very old patina of the modified M91 stock.

Net result, an M1938 stock clone that only you and I will know isnt original (in M38 configuration). Well, and maybe a true expert, detail oriented OCDC type who may notice the sharp comb angle and the quality of the modified Czarist M91 wood is too good for a Soviet Era Mosin Nagant stock. I think I may have kind of lucked out, in a round about way, as most of the M38 rifles Ive seen available for sale these days are mounted in an M44 stock (which is also correct for later M38s, but I wanted the early M38 stock since the M44 came a year after my 1943 M38 was manufactured).

Thanks for helping!

[Eaglelord17]

The stock was likely a M91 Infantry rifle stock, but also likely Finnish made. Could have even been a M27, M28, or M28/30 stock as well due to the sling escutcheon. Unless there is any specific markings on the stock to date it, it could be any of those variants made which would place the stock somewhere 1908 or later as that was when the sling slots were first cut into the stock for the infantry rifles. If I had to guess this rifle was likely a battlefield pick up by a Finnish soldier with damaged wood. The soldier likely then changed out the wood himself as carbines would have been fairly desired (the M38 is a awesome size for a rifle) and bringing it forward might have resulted in it being sent elsewhere.

[1903Collector]

The stock was likely a M91 Infantry rifle stock, but also likely Finnish made. Could have even been a M27, M28, or M28/30 stock as well due to the sling escutcheon. Unless there is any specific markings on the stock to date it, it could be any of those variants made which would place the stock somewhere 1908 or later as that was when the sling slots were first cut into the stock for the infantry rifles. If I had to guess this rifle was likely a battlefield pick up by a Finnish soldier with damaged wood. The soldier likely then changed out the wood himself as carbines would have been fairly desired (the M38 is a awesome size for a rifle) and bringing it forward might have resulted in it being sent elsewhere.

Yes, I agree, based upon the quality of the wood it could be an early Finnish stock, the but without the SA markings on the receiver done to most, it not all captured non-finnish rifles I think anything more is but speculation with no degree of probability possible. It is over all a well done job, but due to the rifle most likely residence time in private hands was in the states I think it is equally possible the modification was done by bubba at some point, a relatively competent bubba to be sure, but bubba none the less. Nonetheless, since a fine M91 stock was already sacrificed, I will complete the modifications to put it right (with the exception of the early sharper comb angle and the wood quality far exceeding anything Ive seen in a Soviet rifle of any kind) to be 99% correct for an M1938 stock. I do worry, however, about being able to dye the replacement M38/M44 Soviet handguard to match the stock. Still, Ive had far more difficult projects before. Ill post pics of the net result...probably closer to the end of the year as I am moving at the end of the month and expect it to take a while before I can get my shop set back up and operating. Gad, I HATE moving!

[Eaglelord17]

It is speculation but it is logical speculation. The SA mark isn't the only indication things spent time in Finnish hands. I have seen other rifles where there is no SA mark but clear indications of Finnish ownership on the particular rifle as not all went through their government.

It is less likely to have been bubba than the Finns as if Bubba had access to both a M91 infantry stock and a brass capped M91/30 handguard to cut down, I would be pretty impressed. The lack of finish on the rifle itself is also indictive of not being refurbished, which drastically decreases the amount of countries it could have been owned by. Either way it is a cool rifle, with a bit of history to it.

[1903Collector]

You are right! If only this rifle could talk!
Odd though, if this was a Finn or Soviet rework of sorts that they didnt use a readily available (by '44) M44 hand guard, but they modified what looks to be the original hand guard to the M91 stock. Also odd that no accommodation was made for an upper sling attachment!?!?
Ill post pics of the final result after I make the changes to meet M1938 specs. The M44 handguard comes in today, but my shop will not be ready for wood work until mid-Oct! :-(

---------- Post added at 12:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------

The stock was likely a M91 Infantry rifle stock, but also likely Finnish made. Could have even been a M27, M28, or M28/30 stock as well due to the sling escutcheon. Unless there is any specific markings on the stock to date it, it could be any of those variants made which would place the stock somewhere 1908 or later as that was when the sling slots were first cut into the stock for the infantry rifles. If I had to guess this rifle was likely a battlefield pick up by a Finnish soldier with damaged wood. The soldier likely then changed out the wood himself as carbines would have been fairly desired (the M38 is a awesome size for a rifle) and bringing it forward might have resulted in it being sent elsewhere.

I agree with your estimate of the approx likely date. But its not a Finnish stock. The cross bolt of Finn stocks were always nicely centered to the finger guard radius. The cross bolts of all Russian stocks are always off-centered low and away.
Im pretty sure most, if not all, Finn sticks were birch (Finland is basically a birch tree forest). I traveled there for work for 15 years...I absolutely LOVE Finland!
Im pretty sure this stock is not birch. Id like to say it is Walnut. Ill know when I cut the grooves into it next month.