Milsurps Talk Radio
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: Two more dubious No(T)s

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size
  1. #1
    Contributing Member smle addict's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 02:17 PM
    Location
    CA, USA
    Posts
    483
    Real Name
    A. G.
    Local Date
    04-16-2024
    Local Time
    01:07 AM

    Two more dubious No(T)s

    Two very obvious faked No4(T)s. First link, most likely a legitimate Savage No4, less telescope. Several spurious marks poorly applied, ruining this rifle.

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/949546197

    The second link, a put-together T with repro scope pads, mount, scope and cheekpiece. Same spurious markings. And it even comes with a two-groove barrel.

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/947635841

    Absolutely depressing...
    Information
    Warning: This is a relatively older thread
    This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

  2. # ADS
    Friends and Sponsors
    Join Date
    October 2006
    Location
    Milsurps.Com
    Posts
    All Threads
    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  3. #2
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    Today @ 12:54 AM
    Location
    Victoria BC
    Posts
    29,897
    Real Name
    Jim
    Local Date
    04-16-2024
    Local Time
    01:07 AM
    Big scary money too. I'd sure hate to pay huge like that only to find out I bought parts.
    Regards, Jim

  4. Avoid Ads - Become a Contributing Member - Click HERE
  5. #3
    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 01:08 PM
    Location
    South West Western Australia
    Posts
    7,749
    Real Name
    CINDERS
    Local Date
    04-16-2024
    Local Time
    04:07 PM
    They give away allot in their descriptors even for a dunce like me those rifles are not worth anywhere near the asking price, should be a law against selling items that are clearly not ridgey didge. Hope no one gets burned.

  6. Thank You to CINDERS For This Useful Post:


  7. #4
    Advisory Panel Lee Enfield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last On
    Today @ 01:54 AM
    Location
    out there
    Posts
    1,822
    Local Date
    04-16-2024
    Local Time
    02:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by smle addict View Post
    Two very obvious faked No4(T)s. First link, most likely a legitimate Savage No4, less telescope. Several spurious marks poorly applied, ruining this rifle.

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/949546197

    The second link, a put-together T with repro scope pads, mount, scope and cheekpiece. Same spurious markings. And it even comes with a two-groove barrel.

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/947635841

    Absolutely depressing...
    Dubious is putting it politely.

    The thing that scares me is that as people pick the errors apart in these rifles, the ones on the production line will improve until it will be VERY difficult to tell if it's real.

    Just like a bunch of the stuff floating in the UKicon and Italyicon the last 10 years or so...
    BSN from the Republic of Alberta

    http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/

  8. The Following 4 Members Say Thank You to Lee Enfield For This Useful Post:


  9. #5
    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Last On
    @
    Location
    West side
    Posts
    4,687
    Local Date
    04-16-2024
    Local Time
    01:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by smle addict View Post
    Two very obvious faked No4(T)s. First link, most likely a legitimate Savage No4, less telescope. Several spurious marks poorly applied, ruining this rifle.

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/949546197

    The second link, a put-together T with repro scope pads, mount, scope and cheekpiece. Same spurious markings. And it even comes with a two-groove barrel.

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/947635841

    Absolutely depressing...
    Come listen to my story 'bout man named Jed,
    A poor moutaineer barely kept his family fed,
    Out one day he was working in the shed,
    Fixin' up a rifle that started out a zed,
    "I'll write a purty story and scope 'er up", he said
    "With one o' them there snipers from the mountain that is red",
    A little stampin' here and little cold blue there,
    and a line of BS that would curl your mother's hair

    etc. etc.



    "Yessir, that there is the reeeeally long range version, had the scope tipped up special like that..."

    1942 ENFIELD STEVENS SAVAGE No.4 Mk1*(T) SNIPER RIFLE, .303 SAVAGE, UNION OF SOUTH AFRICIA WITH WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE ORIGINAL No.32 MkII, 1944 SCOPE.

    RIFLE BY STEVENS COMPANY, RIVER PLANT, CHICOPPE, MASSACHUSETTS IN 1942 FOR USAicon LEND LEASE TO ENGLAND. VERY LOW SERIAL NUMBER OF 22C8052. ON ARRIVAL IN ENGLAND KEPT IN ARSENAL STORAGE DUE TO HIGH BRITISH ARMY OFFICERS FEELING THAT US PROPERTY STAMPED ON RIFLES WAS NOT GOOD FOR BRITISH TROOP MORALE. RANDOMLY PULLED FROM STORAGE IN 1944. SENT FOR GROUP SHOOTING TEST. PASTED. SENT TO HOLLAND AND HOLLAND FOR CONVERSION TO 1OO% SNIPER RIFLE. (NOTE: HOLLAND AND HOLLAND MARKS ARE STAMPED BY HAND. THOSE HANDSTAMPED MARKS ON HARD RIFLE METAL ARE OFTEN WEAK, SLOPPY AND DOUBLE STAMPED.) RIFLE SENT TO BRITISH COMMONWEALTH UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA ARMY WHICH WAS PART OF ALLIED POWERS IN WORLD WAR II. IN SOUTH AFRICA MACHINE STAMPED WITH BROAD ARROW INSIDE U. SOUTH AFRICA DID NOT HAVE DEDICATED SPECIAL FORCES SNIPER UNITS, ETC UNTIL 1972. SNIPERS WERE SELECTED BY UNIT COMMANDERS FOR THEIR OUTSTANDING SHARPSHOOTING. THEY WERE PLACED WHERE NEEDED, SUCH AS ABE BAILEY'S SHARPSHOOTERS UNIT. THIS RIFLE FOUND ITS WAY TO THE 13th MOTORIZED BRIGADE WHICH WAS A UNIT OF 6th ARMOURED DIVISION. 13th WAS SENT FROM SOUTH AFRICA TO ITALY IN MARCH, 1945 TO REPLACE 24th GUARDS BRIGADE. THE 13th WAS USED IN HEAVY COMBAT IN RUGGED TERRAIN/MOUNTAINS OF NORTH ITALY. 13th SPEARHEADED MAIN FORCES IN RECON. 13th SNIPERS USED TO COUNTER GERMAN SNIPERS AND PANZERFAUST SOLDIERS. (HANDFIRED ROCKET USED AGAINST TANKS.) 13th FOUGHT UNTIL END OF WORLD WAR II, 2 MAY, 1945. RETURNED TO SOUTH AFRICA AND DISBANDED IN 1946. SNIPERS WERE KNOWN TO KEEP THEIR RIFLE/SCOPE AFTER RELEASE FROM SERVICE.

    ON SAVAGE RIFLE TYPICAL SQUARED S MACHINE STAMPED MARKINGS. METAL WRIST WITH MACHINE STAMPED SERIAL NUMBER 22C8052, LARGE SAVAGE S, FLAMING BOMB, AND HANDSTAMPED TR. LEFT SIDE OF RECEIVER IS MACHINE MARKED US PROPERTY, BUT THAT MARK MOSTLY COVERED UP BY SNIPER PAD. MACHINE STAMPED No4 Mk1*. AT 11 O'CLOCK POSITION OF EJECTER SCREW HEAD IS HANDSTAMPED HOLLAND & HOLLAND T. THE BOLT HEAD IS SIZE O. BELOW BOLT HEAD ON RECEIVER IS HANDSTAMPED HOLLAND & HOLLAND S MARK. LOOKS LIKE A ONE GROOVE BARREL?? THE BOLT HANDLE STAMPED 22C8052. PARKER HALE SNIPER SLING ROTATING SWIVEL. CORRECT METAL BUTT PLATE. (IF RIFLE HAD BEEN ISSUED TO SOUTH AFRICAN NAVY, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE OF BRASS.) SCOPE NUMBER 16187 HANDSTAMPED ON TOP OF WOOD BUTT WRIST. HANDSTAMPED S51 MARK ON BOTTOM OF BUTT. NO IMPORT MARKS. PARKERIZED METAL. ORIGINAL WOOD FINISH, NO VARNISH. REAR SIGHT REMOVED. 13th MOT BDE SAAF, MEANING 13th MOTORIZED BRIGADE SOUTH AFRICA ARMED FORCES ARE HANDSTAMPED ON BOTTOM OF FOREWOOD. SERIAL NUMBER 22C8053 AND 13 M B SAAF ARE HANDSTAMPED ON SCOPE MOUNT WHICH LOOKS LIKE A EARLY CRUDE CAST MOUNT. HAND STAMPED BY INDIVIDUAL UNIT ARMOUR IN SOUTH AFRICA. ORIGINAL CLEANING DEVICE AND OILER IN BUTT STORAGE COMPARTMENT.

    LOOKS LIKE AN ORIGINAL 1944, WORLD WAR II BRITISH No.32 MkII, OS.1650A, No. 16187 SNIPER SCOPE. SCOPE APPEARS TO BE ALL THERE. IN AS FOUND SHAPE. OPTICS CLEAR. ONLY ONE SLIGHT DENT IN FRONT SHADE RIM. REALLY NICE LOOKING SCOPE FOR ALL THE BATTLE ACTION IT SAW. PLEASE VIEW SCOPE PHOTOS CAREFULLY.

    THE UNION OF SOUTH AFRICA HAD A SMALL ARMED FORCES. I DO NOT LIKE TO USE THE DESCRIPTION "RARE", BUT FEW Enfield Riflesicon WERE SENT BY ENGLAND TO SOUTH AFRICA. THIS IS THE FIRST SOUTH AFRICAN SNIPER RIFLE I HAVE EVER SEEN. SO, GUESS IT IS RARE! (IF RIFLE HAD BEEN RETURNED TO ENGLAND AFTER WAR, AND RELEASED FOR SALE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MACHINED STAMPED ENGLAND SO IT COULD BE IMPORTED FOR SALE IN OTHER COUNTRIES. ALSO, END OF BARREL DOES NOT HAVE LONDON PROOF MARKS, AS REQUIRED UPON RELEASE FOR SALE TO PUBLIC. AGAIN, KEPT BY SNIPER AFTER HIS RELEASE FROM SERVICE?)

    AS AN ADDED NOTE; BARREL WAS SO PACKED BY cosmolineicon THAT I COULD NOT REMOVE MAGAZINE NOR BOLT. THAT WAS A HUGE JOB TO UNGOO EVERYTHING, BUT, NOW MAGAZINE AND BOLT WORK AS THEY SHOULD. MY GUNSMITH SAID BARREL WAS ONE GROOVE. I GOT NEW BORE INSPECTION LIGHT AND WAS VERY SURPRISED TO SEE A BORE AS SHINNY AND SPOTLESSLY CLEAN AS A MIRROR. I MAKEOUT TWO VERY THIN LINES. SO, MY GUESS IS IT WAS TWO GROOVE ONE TIME. I HAVE NOT CHECKED WITH MY GUNSMITH, BUT IF ONE WANTED TO USE AS A SHOOTER THEN BARREL WOULD HAVE TO BE RELINED OR ANOTHER BARREL PUT ON. A LOT OF SAVAGE BARRELS ARE AVAILABLE. AS FOR ME, I SEE AS A PIECE OF HISTORY AND WOULD LEAVE AS IS. IF ANYONE WANTS TO MAKE ME AN OFFER, PLEASE DO?

    CERTIFIED BANK CHECK ONLY. I WILL HOLD SHIPMENT UNTIL CHECK CLEARS. FFL TO FFL ONLY. UPS GROUND ONLY. CHARGE $125 DUE TO HIGH COST OF INSURANCE. SIGNATURE REQUIRED. NO P.O. BOXES. NO SALES TO ALASKA, CALIFORNIA, NOR HAWAII. NO REFUNDS/RETURNS. PHOTOS SHOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU GET. THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTEREST.
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Clampett's Restorations 2.jpg‎
Views:	208
Size:	294.8 KB
ID:	128431   Click image for larger version

Name:	Clampett's Restorations 1.jpg‎
Views:	190
Size:	223.1 KB
ID:	128432   Click image for larger version

Name:	Clampett's Restorations.jpg‎
Views:	186
Size:	161.9 KB
ID:	128433  
    Last edited by Surpmil; 10-08-2022 at 11:06 PM. Reason: Not needed.
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

    Edward Bernays, 1928

    Much changes, much remains the same.

  10. Thank You to Surpmil For This Useful Post:


  11. #6
    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last On
    Yesterday @ 01:08 PM
    Location
    South West Western Australia
    Posts
    7,749
    Real Name
    CINDERS
    Local Date
    04-16-2024
    Local Time
    04:07 PM
    Heck Surpmil that looks like a 60-80 moa set up for super long range shots wonder who fitted the pads, the apprentice perhaps.

  12. Thank You to CINDERS For This Useful Post:


  13. #7
    Legacy Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Last On
    Today @ 12:51 AM
    Location
    Centurion RSA
    Age
    73
    Posts
    1,397
    Real Name
    Daan Kemp
    Local Date
    04-16-2024
    Local Time
    10:07 AM
    Some minor discrepancies in the military history there.

    Good to know that the movement of a rifle in 6 Armd Div was so minutely recorded that the whereabouts of one rifle was known.
    I doubt that a 'few Enfield' rifles were sent to South Africa. What did the troops train with then?
    Also, the South African forces were always know by UDF [Union Defence Force] not SAAF. SAAF was always the SA Air Force.
    The 13th Mot Bde was formed in Italyicon, not in South Africa.
    Baileys sharpshooters was a privately raised body of sharpshooters in WWI, numbering 24 at the start in about 1916 and decreasing from arrival at the front in Franceicon.

  14. The Following 2 Members Say Thank You to Daan Kemp For This Useful Post:


+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts