WWII Pacific USMC Snipers

[Jim Tarleton]

I wonder if Steve has ever seen a T&O table. A quick reference from Wikipedia:

"The United States Marine Corps's Amphibious Reconnaissance Battalion, formerly Company, was a specialized team of Marines and Navy Corpsmen that performed clandestine preliminary pre–D-Day amphibious reconnaissance of planned beachheads and their littoral area within uncharted enemy territory for the joint-Navy/Marine force commanders of the Pacific Fleet during World War II. Often accompanied by Navy Underwater Demolition Teams and the early division recon companies, these amphib recon platoons performed more reconnaissance missions (over 150) than any other single recon unit during the Pacific campaigns[1]".

Note ""early division recon companies", so they did indeed exist. I hope this clears up Steve's mental confusion.

"But I think it's like in this post where Jim said the WWII Marine Snipers weren't used in Reconnaissance." I never said any such thing. Steve tends to see things that don't exist. I clearly said snipers did recon, but I also said their PRIMARY job was to eliminate the enemy.

The Marines didn't create three sniper schools because they didn't use snipers as snipers. Intel gathering applies to every Marine. That does not change the focus of the tasks assigned various units, such as Scout-Snipers.

The Amfib Recon Battalion performed pre D-Day recon. I use the reference only to show the existence of division recon companies. I urge each reader to do their own data search.

Scout-Snipers do relate any intel they can, but their core value is the elimination of the enemy The core value of Force Recon is to gather intel without detection. Anyone who spent any time at Camp Geiger should be very knowledgeable of Force Recon. They are one tough bunch of Marines.

Steve, while you are pontificating to such an extent, this is a good time for you to give us the name of that 98 year old WWII Marine sniper/runner you spoke to. Thanks in advance.

[cplstevennorton]

Where did I ever say that Recon Companies did not exist? I haven't even touched on the subject at all. Jim said and I quote, "There was never any need to use Scout-Snipers for reconnaissance, and such action would not benefit anyone." I said that was not correct and that is all I have stated. I then provide actual docs from 1943 showing clearly this is wrong.

Wikipedia is not a scholarly source, and very little I see on it is correct. What you see online, and what you see in the original documents are two very different things. That is why so much of this info is wrong out there.

In WWII the actual title was a SCOUT. There were Scouts who provided Reconnaissance, which also included Scout Snipers. Today there is a MOS 0321 which is titled a Recon Marine. There was not an 0321 Recon Marine in WWII. The correct terminology was a Scout. But unless you actually read the documents from this era you would incorrectly identify them as Recon.

There was no Force Recon in WWII, so you cannot make assumptions of what Force Recon's job role was in comparison to the WWII Scout Sniper. Because Force Recon did not exist.

Also I have seen the T&O table, I copied it from the Archives. This is the actual T&O on Scouts from WWII.




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[Jim Tarleton]

You must have overlooked my question. Since you are so forthcoming with information, please give us the name of the 98-year old WWII sniper/runner you spoke to. Thanks in advance.

[cplstevennorton]

For some reason my link to the T&E table for Scouts didn't load right. Here it is again.

[Jim Tarleton]

Steve's documents fail yet again. Steve's confusion is understandable. The following is from the USMC MOS Manual from 1945. The Scout-Sniper MOS was 8541 prior to this manual, as the Marines used Army MOS numbers, and 317 prior to that. As one can see, the official title was Scout Sniper, not Scout as Steve mistakenly suggests.

Documents are nice, if you know the origin and context. Steve posted a heavily cropped document, as he typically does; but I don't see USMC or Marines or anything else that indicates the origin of that snippet of an unknown document.

[cplstevennorton]

Steve's documents fail yet again. Steve's confusion is understandable. The following is from the USMC MOS Manual from 1945. The Scout-Sniper MOS was 8541 prior to this manual, as the Marines used Army MOS numbers, and 317 prior to that. As one can see, the official title was Scout Sniper, not Scout as Steve mistakenly suggests.

Documents are nice, if you know the origin and context. Steve posted a heavily cropped document, as he typically does; but I don't see USMC or Marines or anything else that indicates the origin of that snippet of an unknown document.

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Ok, I'm seriously lost. What Jim just posted is proving what I keep on stating over and over is correct.

Jim is not understanding what he is reading. Because he doesn't know what the 761 in the corner means.

MOS 761 was an Marine Scout Sniper in WWII.

MOS 745 is a standard Infantry Rifleman.

A 745 Rifleman when specially trained as a Scout Sniper becomes MOS 761.

Every Scout Sniper I have researched started out as a 745 Rifleman first, and earned the 761 MOS once they completed Sniper School.

Which this literally says MOS 761 is a Scout Sniper, a specially trained MOS 745 Rifleman, who engages in scouting and patrolling and well you can read the rest.





---------- Post added at 01:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:45 PM ----------

If anyone wants to see how the 745 Rifleman is distinguished to Snipers, you only have to look at the rosters.

745 is the standard Rifleman.

761 is a Scout Sniper.

746 is a BAR Automatic Rifleman.

[cplstevennorton]

There was never any need to use Scout-Snipers for reconnaissance, and such action would not benefit anyone. In Vietnam, we had Force Recon and Scout-Snipers. Recon did the reconnaissance, preferably without firing a shot, and the Scout-Snipers took people out. Someone is confusing the two entities.

I removed the 745 number because it's confusing him. But it's very clear that MOS 761, a Scout Sniper's role was scouting and providing reconnaissance and not just shooting. Which is exactly what I keep on saying and he keeps on telling me I am wrong. But he just posted where it clearly says that.

[Jim Tarleton]

Ok, I'm seriously lost. What Jim just posted is proving what I keep on stating over and over is correct.

Jim is not understanding what he is reading. Because he doesn't know what the 761 in the corner means.

Who does Steve think he is kidding? I posted the manual for him, and he accuses me of not knowing what is in the manual? More smoke and mirrors. This all started when Steve stated that the Marine snipers in WWII did little sniping, but spent most of their time doing recon. I stated that their primary purpose was sniping, but did recon, as did all Marines. He then states that the official title of the Scout-Sniper was Scout. I posted the excerpt from the official USMC manual that showed he was mistaken. He then makes the silly claim that I don't know the difference between a primary MOS and a secondary MOS (all Scout-Snipers have to have a rifleman MOS and pass a physical to get into the school, then and now). How he would know what I know is beyond me, unless he can also read minds. Note that he didn't admit he was wrong.

He still hasn't told us the name of that old Marine sniper/runner. There was no MOS for a Marine Runner in WWII. You can download that manual and see for yourself.

Let's move on, Steve. We have beat this horse to death. I know why you can't provide the name of that old Marine sniper/runner, and so does everyone else, so let's drop it.

[cplstevennorton]

Jim is rambling at this point.

I'm out unless someone has something intellectual to talk about.

[Riter]

I found this in an article I recently read. The use of dogs was sheer genius.

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@Jim Tarleton - source please? I'd also like the source on the 2nd post re: Checkerboard 99th ID. Checkerboard or 99th ID was also known as Battle Babies. They arrived to Luxembourg about two weeks before the Battle of the Bulge. Here's a link to one former 99th Div sniper: https://donmooreswartales.com/2013/03/29/clyde-housel/ Another 99th Div sniper was Max Gendelman who was captured. As a Jew, he discarded his tags and hid his ethnicity to survive. His buddies didn't rat him out. He eventually escaped b/c he was befriended by a Luftwaffe Lt. who wanted out of the war. His story is told in A Tale of Two Soldiers. It's movie quality stuff.

USMC Lt. William Putney help train the 2nd and 3rd War Dog Platoon. His book is Always Faithful: A Memoirs of Marine Dogs in WW II. He made no mention of scout-snipers being trained as dog handlers.