Australian/New Zealand Use of M16 Rifle in Vietnam?

[Flying10uk]

In the UK, on Boxing Day, on one of the "Freeview Channels", showed the film "Danger Close: the Battle of Long Tan". The film was made in 2019 and tells the story of a relatively small contingent of Australian and New Zealanders finding themselves getting involved in a battle with a much larger force of NVA regulars.

It seemed like a reasonably well made film but there did seem to be rather a lot of M16 rifles being carried by the Australians and New Zealanders, although some did have the SLR. I thought that during this time period and on deployment in Vietnam Australian and New Zealanders would mostly have been armed with SLR's, with, perhaps, the exception of Australian special forces, some of whom may have carried the M16? The film was made in 2019 and so perhaps the film company had difficulty sourcing an adequate quantity of SLR's for the filming?

Before someone points out "It's only a film.", I realise that. The question is whether the M16 rifle saw much use by Australia and New Zealand in Vietnam which I wasn't aware that it did.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[browningautorifle]

In 1977 I was doing temporary exchange duty with 8/9 RAR in Enoggera Barracks Brisbane. We were being indoctrinated into their land warfare center in Canungra and were taught their doctrine, remember this was just half dozen years after infantry had stopped being sent to RVN. Most privates sported the RVN medals. Their lessons at that time taught that the infantry section was armed with SLR rifles generally except for the lead scout carrying an M16A1 and the section commander carried an M16A1...and there was one M60 per section. In Platoon HQ the Pl Comd and signaler each carried M16A1 and I think the Platoon 2I/c... I was Pl weapons det and I carried an M60 but my A/Gunner carried an M16A1. I think the F1 SMG was relegated to drivers. I don't remember them in the infantry section. They had bought these weapons straight out of the US supply system for RVN.

[browningautorifle]

Found a couple other things to add for your interest...a pic of an M60 gunner and you can see two M16A1s here, plus an order of battle... In case you can't get to facebook, here's the pic.

https://www.facebook.com/battle.orde...jTPEytzD8&_rdr

[Peter Laidler]

I was there in 1967, in Malaya at first with 4 RAR when we saw our first AR15 rifles. There was only a provisional training pamphlet and no EMEI's either. The ARr15's has a pxxx poor reputation that was following them around. We didn't have a lot of ammo or spare parts that had to come down from Butterworth or up from Singapore Ordnance. They slowly replaced the old Owens (supposedly....) and the new issue F1's. I went to Australia shortly afterwards and there were only a few AR15's around then. Feel free to correct me on the date-line. I flew back to Malaya and immediately went on a 'get-to-grips-with-this-PDQ' course at 40 Base Workshop, the Far East Training Centre with RAEME Armourers Johnny Cotterell, John Dudley, Lauri Taggart and a pommy Armourer called Dave Lee for a crash course on the AR15's that we had to take with us!!!. To be honest, by then, we knew more about them than the instructors. But we got through it - and got HIM through it too!

We incorporated some worthwhile modifications during the course. A while we started to get the first M-16's and later, the M-16's with the thumb-close mech. Johnny Cottterel went to Bandiana to give the RAEME training school instructors a crash course - the blind leading the blind. It all worked out and afterwards, we realised that this was going to be our jungle rifle as sare parts and ammo were coming in and the old shotguns and SMG's were going OUT. By the time the Poms (the KSLI) were withdrawing, the M16 was the norm and the KSLI M-16's replaced out old AR15's. The open flash eliminator was a xxxxxxx nightmare in the jungle

Much later, the M-60 GPMG was falling out of favour, especially by those instructors at Singleton who had got to know about the L7/FN MAG58 GPMG - , better known as 'THE GENERAL'. So I had a bit of fame because I'd been taught the L7 in theory but not the practice so was able to pass on a few of its magnificent features. I have to say that compared with our M-60's of the time, they were chalk and cheese

So, back to AR15's and M-16's. I say, 1967 we saw them and by mid to late '68 the early M-16's were on stream - followed by the later models in 1969

Please feel free to correct, alter or add as it's 50+ years now

[Flying10uk]

Thanks for the replies chaps. The Battle of Long Tan took place in 1966 and judging from what you've said it sounds like there were rather too many M16's shown in the film.

[Peter Laidler]

It's a film. Long Tan was still firmly embedded in the memory of the Australians and Kiwis and thereafter it was a STEEP learning curve. Not just that but Oz and NZ had recently got control of Puc Touy province and D445 from operating from the old Saigon airport area (was it Tan Son Nuht???)....... Mind you, it also gave the VC a bloody nose too - eventually. They realised that we could be reinforced too.

[Woodsy]

Australia had an official training manual (The Automatic Rifle-M16) published for general circulation in 1966 and would have been using them for a couple of years before that. M16 issue of M16's to NZ troops was mainly to officers, NCO's, and specialists who had other duties (radio operators, artillery observers, etc) while riflemen carried the SLR. As the war progressed the issue of M16's was more widespread, and from the end of the war until 1988 when the Steyr AUG's were introduced, it was the issue rifle for the Infantry, with SLR's being relegated to training and second echelon units. The official MG of NZ at the beginning of the Vietnam conflict was the L7 GPMG (FN MAG58), supplemented by L4 Brens and L2A1 heavy barrel SLR's, but for reasons of compatibility the M60 was issued, with the L4's and L2's being support weapons for Artillery, etc. After Vietnam the NZ M60's were placed in storage an sold off in 1988 (I had one in my collection for many years).

[Peter Laidler]

Sorry to be a tad contradictory Rod but I distinctly remember seeing my first, what we called an 'Armalite' in june/july '67 with Armourers from 4 RAR plus our replacements from 8 RAR who I stayed with. Hence the start of what I mention above.

There might have been US issued provisional handbooks before then but the only ones we saw were little US issued comic book type things that came down by request, from SVN via RAF/RAAF Butterworth on the daily 'milk' run...., that were hardly Armourers tech manuals.

We did have some UK SASC Warrant Officers who were doing some killing trials with the AR15's (against sheep, goats and pigs) at the JWS that came to see us. I met one as a Major later on, Maurice Fogwell. His claim to fame was that when the GPMG was finally approved for adoption by the UK MoD - via him, as a WO1 in late 1965, the Director of Infantry told him words to the effect, '....... I have just signed the L7 off to be the new machine gun to replace the Vickers. See that coat hook on the back of my door.....? If I have to back track or eat my words after taking the advice of your trials team, I will call you back and hang you by your balls from that hook..... ' No need to worry Maurice, it's still going strong. As is your M-16 Infantry Training Manual

I don't recall seeing an L7 (UE or BL numbered) in NZ during my 3 short tours (jollies.....!) there in 67/68/69. You're right about the M60. That was retained in SVN to keep belted MG ammo standardised - if my memory serves me right (?). A bit like the BESA and the Browning .30. We kept the BESA going until 1966 as the standard machine gun in the remaining Chirchill ARV's AVRE's, Bridgelayers etc etc. We all knew it was crap but a crap MG is good enough in a crap tank

[Woodsy]

Hi Peter. The Aussie M16 handbook in my collection is definitely not a provisional or US book (Australian Military Forces, Infantry Training, Volume 1, Infantry Platoon Weapons, Pamphlet No 3C, The Automatic Rifle - M16, 1966) 73 pages with photos of Aussie soldiers illustrating it (gum trees in the background). It has had three amendments glued in (1970, 72, 77) and is ex NZRF Cadet School. The first GPMG I ever saw was in 1961 (NZ Army firepower demo on our school range with No 4's, SLR's, Sterlings, Vickers, and the GPMG), and all the NZ issue ones I have seen were all UE numbered. My one was UE A6230. I got it on 'Gratuitous Issue' from the Army in 2008 when they were destroying some worn ones. It was returned to them in 2010. M16's in general NZ service started appearing here in the late 60's and I was selling commercial Colt AR15's in 1971, mainly to the venison recovery industry. I never saw any when I did my basic in the mid-60's but we had SLR's.

[smerdon42]

Hey all here is a picture link of my dad holding a m16in 1966 in SVN he was a foundation member of 5RAR and served in the assault pioneer platoon.he was part of a patrol that was in the area of long tan the day before 6 RAR got hit. He was a renowned scrounger he got what you couldn’t get .
Lance Corporal Neville Smerdon of Wagga Wagga, NSW, and 5th Battalion, The Royal Australian ... | Australian War Memorial