British Proof-marks on a March '42 Winchester

[RCS]

I have started to check some of my data sheets on early Winchester M1 rifles and have the following data :

Winchester s/n 161369 green-gray color receiver without anneal color
alot of CM marked parts, stock WRA WB modifield to trap door, possible restoration ?

Winchester s/n 164700 reported as without anneal color sold for $9825.00 on auction in 2013
later sold on auction for lower price in 2020.

Winchester s/n 122864 British proofs on barrel between gas cylinder rings, early rear sight knobs and had
WRA WB no trap stock, list on gunboards for $3400.00 unknown history

[cgroc09]

Very nice rifle and a bit uncommon to find a Winchester M1 Garand with British markings, essentially with red paint, or at least a ghost trace, on the hand guard lower band area. Congratulations.

The gas cylinder is definitely Springfield and possibly the lock also. The cylinder and lock are definitely incorrect but who knows why they were replaced. Was the original cylinder damaged on the Winchester cylinder ? Maybe the finish was damaged and someone replaced it with a nicer looking one ? The finish looks original on these pieces and it was common for the finish to degrade without use or 'fall off' the early Springfield gas cylinders and gas locks. The single slot screw looks to be correct and with, what appears as, original dulite finish.

Most everything else appears to be Winchester. There are certain finishes on the parts that are correct by what information and pictures we can see. More and better pictures would be very helpful in determining any markings, finish, etc..

The annealed heels weren't done until a little bit later during production at Springfield. I'm unsure if Winchester annealed any heels during production as I don't have that information yet in my research. BUT the heels on earlier rifles could and would be annealed by simply removing the trigger group and then the receiver group from the stock. The rear of the receiver could be annealed without dissassembly of the group and then reassembled back with the stock and trigger group and the rifle returned to stores or service. Not uncommon to find each rifles that are all original or substantially original except the heels were annealed.

I would be hesitant to start changing parts or dissmissing the rifle without further inspection and research. There are some unanswered questions that can be answered easily with more pictures and research.

Paul

[Bob Seijas]

In the early days, annealing was done at pretty low levels. They would simply take the rifle out of the stock and dip the heel in a pot of molten lead, usually at an angle. You commonly see the slanted edges of the discoloration on the receiver. Sometimes they dipped a bit too deep and caught the tips of the receiver legs, it's not uncommon. The lead tempered the receiver but did not stick, so they just put the receiver back in the stock and it was done. It was often called "lead pot annealing." None of the parts was changed.

[Ms15710]

I consider myself a bit of a purist when it comes to collecting so I don't imagine I'll be changing anything on this rifle, especially given how hard it is to find a contemporary, original Winchester gas cylinder suitable for the rifle. I take Scott Duff's "Leave it alone" to heart. I assume the part likely got swapped upon re-entry to the U.S. but of course, anything is possible. We purchased it at an auction; I wish I knew who the original owner was so I could have asked them questions about it.

That being said, I'm happy to provide more photographs of the M1, but I'm not sure what angles/areas I should focus on other than what's already been provided. I'm still learning so I'm sure there are things you guys are noticing that are passing over my head.

[1563621]

Beautiful rifle! I would not touch a thing! Fantastic find.

[cpc]

In the early days, annealing was done at pretty low levels. They would simply take the rifle out of the stock and dip the heel in a pot of molten lead, usually at an angle. You commonly see the slanted edges of the discoloration on the receiver. Sometimes they dipped a bit too deep and caught the tips of the receiver legs, it's not uncommon. The lead tempered the receiver but did not stick, so they just put the receiver back in the stock and it was done. It was often called "lead pot annealing." None of the parts was changed.

Thanks Bob, regards, Curt

---------- Post added at 12:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 PM ----------

Thanks Paul, regards Curt

Very nice rifle and a bit uncommon to find a Winchester M1 Garand with British markings, essentially with red paint, or at least a ghost trace, on the hand guard lower band area. Congratulations.

The gas cylinder is definitely Springfield and possibly the lock also. The cylinder and lock are definitely incorrect but who knows why they were replaced. Was the original cylinder damaged on the Winchester cylinder ? Maybe the finish was damaged and someone replaced it with a nicer looking one ? The finish looks original on these pieces and it was common for the finish to degrade without use or 'fall off' the early Springfield gas cylinders and gas locks. The single slot screw looks to be correct and with, what appears as, original dulite finish.

Most everything else appears to be Winchester. There are certain finishes on the parts that are correct by what information and pictures we can see. More and better pictures would be very helpful in determining any markings, finish, etc..

The annealed heels weren't done until a little bit later during production at Springfield. I'm unsure if Winchester annealed any heels during production as I don't have that information yet in my research. BUT the heels on earlier rifles could and would be annealed by simply removing the trigger group and then the receiver group from the stock. The rear of the receiver could be annealed without dissassembly of the group and then reassembled back with the stock and trigger group and the rifle returned to stores or service. Not uncommon to find each rifles that are all original or substantially original except the heels were annealed.

I would be hesitant to start changing parts or dissmissing the rifle without further inspection and research. There are some unanswered questions that can be answered easily with more pictures and research.

Paul