Model 1917 - Poor Accuracy

[NMC_EXP]

I have a Winchester Model 1917 with an 8-18 dated Win. barrel. It has the original blue and was probably a Lend Lease rifle due to some red paint residue on the stock. The bore is immaculate and the head space is fine. The front sight blade is centered and staked.

I shot it for the first time today - 100 yards prone with the stock on a rest just ahead of the magazine. The ammo was LC69 ball. Before firing I tightened the action screws and handguard screws. The rear handguard is loose and moves fore and aft about 1/8th of an inch.

I used the rear leaf in the up position set at 200 yards. The barrel was clean and I fired three warm up shots into the backstop. My first two shots were three inches right but probably 14 inches low (did not measure). I raised the leaf to 400 yards and fired three more. This group was two to three inches right and about three inches high.

I fired seven more shots and the hits were walking progressively higher and to the right. I was single loading and firing two per minute.

QUESTIONS:
1. Why would it shoot so low?
--Were different height front sights available?
--Could poor bedding cause this?
2. Seems like poor bedding could cause the impacts to walk. Is there any info around on how to shim / tighten up / relieve the bedding on the M1917 to make it shoot better?

Thanks

Information

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[Hotplate2]

If your rifle has a good muzzle and the proper forend tension (4 to 6 lbs) upward pressure on the barrel. The rifle should shoot well. Other indicators, minute details. With the action out of the stock does the barrel look bent, with a light shining down the bore do you see concentric rings of light. If all of this checks out. I, myself find the sights a little difficult to use. I used to wander when trying to encompass/incorporate in whole or in part the whole front sight assembly in my sight picture. Doesn't work well. Centering the top of the front sight post will quell a lot of errors.
Otherwise its my personal opinion that 17's are more inherently accurate than 03's. Other than a damaged, shot out or rusted bore, that puppy should provide exceptional accuracy. I hope this helps!

[kragluver]

In addition to what HP mentioned, check that the barrel is free-floating between the receiver the the last 1" or so of the fore-end. The loose hand-guard is normal. Just make sure no part of the hand-guard is bearing on the barrel. One of my '17s had a warped forearm and would string shots badly when I first bought it. Once I shaved a bit of wood from the forearm and confirmed that the barrel was re-floated, it shot fine. As HP mentioned, the upward pressure on the fore-end is important (as it is with most full stock milsurp rifles).

[Calif-Steve]

Winchesters are indeed accurate. I had a nice Eddystone with a JA barrel. It would walk up and off the target at around 30 rounds in a match. I finally sold it. I would try reloads with the other advise already given. Try to down-load perhaps 45 gr. Varget witha nice 168 gr. Nosler, Sierra bullet. Good luck.

[Patrick Chadwick]

In general, milsurps wil shoot above the POA (point of aim) at 100 yards. 14 inches low indicates that something is seriously wrong.

Although this may partially repeat other postings, here is a simple check procedure to find the cause of the trouble:

The Lend Lease rifles were apparently used by the Home Guard. So some (most?) of these rifles were not used by serious rifle shooters with any kind of markmanship ambitions, but WERE polished to death for the benefit of the sergeant major. These rifles have traces of a red paint band, beautifully shiny bores - and blunderbuss muzzles, worn to one side, as the result of years of improper use of the pull-through. Grouping is lousy and off-center.

I waited for years here in Germany to find an M1917 with no trace of red paint, well-dinged woodwork, but an as-new bore.

So

1) Check the muzzle carefully. A ding on the crown can be cleaned up by a gunsmith for a few dollars. But a blunderbuss is useless. Since shortening the barrel is not a good option, the only sensible cure is counterboring, IF the rifle is worth it.

2) Remove the handguards. Check the barrel channel for binding between the barrel and the wood. Binding on one side may cause the POI to wander horizontally.

3) Remove the system from the wood. You do NOT have to remove the foresight. Just leave the barrel rings loose on the barrel. Check for foreign bodies, wood splits etc.

4) Refit the system into the stock. Do not fit the handguards. Use duct tape or similar to prevent the barrel rings rattling about and hitting the barrel. Tighten up the trigger guard screws evenly. Sorry, I have no idea what the torque should be. Obviously not as for a watch, but also not as for wheel nuts. As tight as you can manage with a well-fitting screwdriver and one hand will do for a start.

5) Get some GOOD ammo. Using odds and ends of doubtful quality will invalidate the test. You want to test the rifle - not the ammo. Fire a test group at 50 yards/meters. The point of impact will be affected because the handguards and rings have not been fitted. That does not matter. What does matter is that you should have a CENTERED group, although the vertical position may be way off. Which is why you test fire at 50 first, to make sure that the POI will be on the target at 100.

6) If 5) was OK, then repeat at 100.

7) If 6) was OK, fit the handguards and barrel rings.

8) If you got this far without trouble, your rifle is OK.

However, your first posting indicates that trouble will show at some stage. If you follow the sequence listed above you should be able to identify the trouble.

Good luck!

Patrick

[kcw]

Shooting that low sounds VERY like much like the Eddystone I have, a WWII rebuild with its' original barrel. I bought it because it was in such wonderful shape, looked unused since rebuild; I found out why.
My rifle was shooting about as low as yours, no factory replacement sight insert (Springfield Sporters sells an assortment pack) would work unless the laddered ap sight was at 800yds or so.
I found that the stock (an original WWI) wasn't properly inletted about 3" forward of the receiver. When the action screws were tightened the barrel contacted the wood which resulted in the muzzle end sitting about 3/4" ABOVE the end of the stock (rather than pressing down against the wood). When the handguards and bands were installed the barrel was simply bent down by whomever slapped it together. This resulted in the barrel assuming the shape of a rainbow, thus shooting downward.
After relieving the wood on the "Monday Morning" stock the barrel fit properly and the rifle was immediately useful @ 100yds with the ladder up and the ap sight fully bottomed.
I'm guessing that if my rifle ever was taken to the range during WWII it was immediately tossed aside after the first few shots, which is why it looks so nice.

[Chuckindenver]

sounds like a loose stock bushing, also front contact should be 10 to 15 INCH POUNDS, not foot pounds.
your guard screws should be tight to 30 inch pounds as well.
if your stock pushing are loose. then remove them, trim 1/8 of the end, spread them apart just a tad, and put them back in the stock.
this is a common issue with military bolt action rifle,s most if not all WW1 and WW2 bolt action military rifles have stock bushings, so they can be used when wet, cold, hot, dry ect, with effecting the rifles basic function. so the stock wont crack.
years down the road, the wood shrinks, swells, gets loose, short of replacing the stock, the above is a good fix.

[NMC_EXP]

I truly appreciate the suggestions all of you have provided.

I will check the condition of the muzzle. Because the bore is in such fine condition, I had not thought of it being cleaned for the sake of being cleaned.

I'll also disassemble the rifle and check the bedding.

I will report back on the results.

Best regards,

Jim