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  1. #1
    Senior Member MEHavey's Avatar
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    Kg-12

    Placed here (and in the Garandicon Forum) since reloaders tend to be 'pickier' that most:

    My Garand -- with a spotless bore -- is a copper hound when it comes to HXP ammo. In the past I had settled on Butch's BoreShine (having gone through Hoppe's Special, Shooter's Choice Copper Remover, Sweet's, Montana Extreem Copper Remover, MPro7 copper remover, multiple "copper-cleaning" foam cleaners, etc). An application of Butch's *always* came out indicating heavy blue after using these other cleaners.

    Used alone (or after using MPro-7 powder solvent to get the regular fouling out), Butch's would come out *incredibly" blue, royal blue to the point that nearby shooters would go "Wow!" and ask how it was shooting with all that copper fouling. I'd show them the target in which it would inevitably hold a 99-100 6-8X off the bench even with Greek ammo. So Butch's was really finding what in other gun's would be a "so-what?" level of copper fouling.

    But even with Butch's it would take 4-5 applications/soakings/scrubbings to get all the color out.



    So after 20 rounds yesterday I just put one Butch's patch down the bore and cleaned up w/ Breakfree so as to deliberately leave copper. And today the KG-12 arrived in the mail.

    I hauled the Garand out and ran a sloppy patch's-worth of KG-12 (water-based/no smell) to wet the bore, then used the same patch to scrub maybe 15-20 seconds,... and let it sit for 8-9 minutes. Dry patch/scrub-out and then a sloppy patch of Butch's to test the results with a 15-minute soak.

    No color, nada, nunka, not a thing ….where normally Butch's would still be indicating considerable color.

    I'm sold.

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  3. #2
    Member Matt Anthony's Avatar
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    I would of rather read that you cleaned only with KG-12 instead of priming the bore with Butch's and then Breakfree. You gave the KG-12 a boost, so to speak.
    I use Butch's for normal copper removal and cleaning. I also use Montana Extreme 50 cal. copper remover on bores that won't clean up with Butch's.
    What I have found is that if you run two patches of Butch's down the bore after every 9 shots, then two dry patches, copper is almost non-existant when cleaning directly after the range. Another great product is BoreTech Eliminator, non-toxic, no petroleum products, and it will eat a brass jag if you don't clean it after use. With the Eliminator I use the Nylon jags.

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  5. #3
    Senior Member MEHavey's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    I use M-Pro7 to get out the powder fouling. No Butch's at this time other than as an indicator after everything else is done if I'm feeling picky.

    But what used to take 4-5 follow-on/15-minute soak & scrubs cycles w/ Butch's to get the rest of the copper out after the MPro-7, now only takes one 5-minute soak/then dry patch w/ KG-12.

    Butch's is great (best of all I've found for as a "Single Cleaner/Remover"), but KG-12 trumps even Butch's.

  6. #4
    Member Matt Anthony's Avatar
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    I am sincerely not doubting your method, if it works for you, then go for it. I was just commenting on the fact you had started the cleaning process before using the kg-12.
    The only barrels I have trouble with copper are factory barrels, my Krieger, Shillen and Hart barrels were all hand lapped and that makes the difference.
    I had mentioned in an earlier post that I rebarreled a T-99 Arisakaicon to 22-250 with a Doulglas XX barrel I took off another rifle. There wasn't any lands an inch from the chamber, but the rest of the barrel was in great shape. The gunsmith cut the barrel, threaded and chambered it which took care of that problem. I had been using Butch's on this barrel and when he looked into the bore with a scope, there wasn't any copper and the lands were not carboned up. I attribute that to the method I have been using.
    Rough barrels as you know, pick up and hold copper. You might consider the David Tubb final finish method to obtain a smoother barrel which would cut the copper wash considerably or even using moly bullets with the Lyman bore cream. On a factory Rem. 700 243 varmint I almost eliminated the copper problem after seasoning and shooting 50 rounds. Cleaning intervals when using Moly are also extended and once the moly has coated the barrel, your groups should tighten up. Running a couple of patches of Kroil down the bore before you leave the range ensures that no moisture can get under the moly. Kroil is the only penetrating lubricant that can do this and I swear by it. The Kroil also starts the cleaning process and makes that job somewhat easier.
    I guess there are numerous chemicals and methods that all work, it just takes time to sort them out and then use what works for you. I'll try the kg-12, heck, it seems I've tried them all over the years and maybe I will see it's better than Butch's. However, I have an enormous amount of Butch's!
    Matt

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    Senior Member MEHavey's Avatar
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    Matt,

    I ran the full Tubbs FF system on my M-1, my (sporter'd) `03 Sprgfld, and my HBAR. (The HBAR barrel was a disaster direct from Colt, who had apparently broken one of the reamer/rifling flutes in it and cut one of the grooves really badly -- God it was rough. That barrel was *so* bad that I couldn't even get a patch down it w/o cutting the edges off. Tubbs FF gave be a shootable barrel until the 7.7 Krieger came in.) As you imagine, it liked copper.

    The rifles that really opened my eyes to copper fouling was my Ruger 375 H&H and my Krieger-barreled 300WinMag. After major work on the forearm to completely free the Ruger barrel from the factory-installed barrel band supporting the front sling swivel, and pillar-bedding the receeiver, it now shoots honest 1/2 MOA groups -- but *still* loads up on copper after a day's shooting w/ the loads I'm putting through it.

    The Krieger 300Winnie was also given a "modified" Tubbs treatment after it coppered up on me (5 ea of the finer grits instead of ten each of all five grits), and it *also* still shows copper after 10-20 rounds. :-( But it shoots 3/4 MOA and the fliers are gone. :-)

    I figured I was wearing the barrels as much by the 90 minutes of cleaning/copper removal req'd as I was by shooting. KG-12 stopped all that and I go home from the range now after after 15 minutes max.

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