wobley webley

[JHC II]

Just bought a wonder brace of webleys one in 38 one in 455 the 38 is DA and the 455 is DA SA. So how smooth will the trigger pull be on the 38? I have seen 455 before but have never had the opportunity to shoot it does she bark or a mild thump? I have a box of 38 and will be ordering dies and brass for all but would like a nudge in the right direction for 455 ammo or even 38 for that matter

Information

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[tiriaq]

Is the .38 an Enfield or a Webley? The most common DA only .38 is the Enfield No. 2 Mk. I* revolver. Resembles a Webley. Trigger pulls tend to be fairly heavy, I find the pull inferior to something like a Smith. The service cartridge uses the same case as a .38 S&W, and this cartridge will fire in the revolver, but the service load uses a heavier bullet, so sighting can be an issue.
I assume the .455 is a Mk. VI. The most common (relatively speaking) ammunition for this is the new Fiocchi. Not cheap, but it is fresh and available. Brass can also be had, or .45 Colt cases can be shortened, and the rims thinned from the front. Mild thump more than a bark. I recall a .455 being fired at an oil drum. Bang...spong. Dent in drum as if it had been hit with a ball pein hammer. Velocity is low.

[Claven2]

bear in mind that's .38S&W, not .38SPL. Not interchangeable.

The pull won;t be too bad, but it's not as light as a modern DAO automatic.

[stoggie]

Actually, its not .38S&W, its military designation is .380, but its real calibre is .38/200. .38S&W will work (a little sloppy), but the brass will not be reloadable. .38SPL will not fit as it is too long - but you can use a case trimmer to cut it down to .38S&W size and reload. I think the brass again will not be reloadable.

The .380 can be both an Enfield and a Webley. It is a Webley design and patent, but the British gov't took the patent and made the revolver itself, these being Enfields as some were made in the Enfield plant.

Here is some additional info I found on the internet a while back (can't take credit for the info):

Enfield No.2 MkI**

After the First World War, it was decided that a .38 calibre (9.65 mm) pistol firing a 200 grain (13 g) bullet would be as effective as the .455 calibre (11.6 mm) round. There is some doubt as to how true this actually was, as the .38/200 round gives comparable performance to the modern .38 Special cartridge- which is not nearly as powerful as the .455 Webley round.

Nonetheless, the British firm of Webley & Scott tendered their Webley Mk IV revolver in .38/200 calibre. Rather than adopting it, the British authorities took the design to the Government-run Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield. The Enfield factory came up with a revolver that was very similar to the Webley Mk IV .38, but internally slightly different.

This pistol was designated as the Enfield No. 2 Mark 1 revolver and adopted for use from 1932.

A Webley Mk IV .38 revolver - Webley sued the British Government for £2250, being "costs involved in the research and design" of the revolver. Their action was contested by Enfield, who stated that the Enfield No 2 Mk I was actually designed by Captain Boys (the Assistant Superintendent of Design, famous for the Boys Rifle) with assistance from Webley & Scott, and not the other way around- accordingly, their claim was denied. By way of compensation, however, the Royal Commission on Awards to Inventors awarded Webley & Scott £1250.

During the Second World War, large numbers were handled to the Free French Forces and French Forces of the Interior; the weapon is known as "Enfield Commando" in France.

Variants

Mk 1
- Spured hammer,
- single and double action.

Mk 1*
- spurless hammer,
- double action only.

Mk 1**
- lightened trigger pull,
- Simplified for wartime production in 1942.

The vast majority of Enfield No 2 Mk I revolvers were modified to Mk I* during WWII. The Enfield (and Webley revolvers) were not completely phased out in favour of the Browning Hi-Power until 1963.

The official explanation of the change to the Mk I* version was that the Tank Corps had complained the spur on the hammer was catching on protrusions inside tanks, but most historians nowadays believe that the real reason was that the Mk I* version was cheaper and faster to manufacture.

The No 2 Mk I* is at least as accurate as any other service pistol of its time in normal short-range combat situations, because of the relatively light double action trigger pull. It is not, however, the best choice for precision shooting - the double action pull will throw the most competent shooter's aim off enough to noticeably affect accuracy.

The Enfield No 2 is very fast to reload, as are all British top-break revolvers, because of its automatic ejector, which removes simultaneously all six cases from the cylinder. A modern speedloader designed for Smith & Wesson "K" Frame revolvers will function with any of the British .38/200 top-break revolvers, further speeding reloading.

Some unit Armourers are known to have retrofitted the Enfield No 2 Mk I* back to the Mk I variant, but this was never an official policy and appears to have been done on an individual basis.

Other Manufacturers
The vast majority of Enfield No 2 revolvers were made by RSAF (Royal Small Arms Factory) Enfield, but wartime necessities meant that numbers were produced elsewhere.

Albion Motors: Albion Motors in Scotland made the Enfield No 2 Mk I* from 1941–1943, whereupon the contract for production was passed onto Coventry Gauge & Tool Co. By 1945, over 42,000 Enfield No 2 Mk I* revolvers had been produced by Albion/CG&T.

The quality and workmanship on the Albion and CG&T guns is identical to that of RSAF Enfield, and the revolvers are all sturdy, reliable, and effective.

HAC: The Howard Auto Cultivator Company in NSW, Australia tooled up and began manufacturing the Enfield No 2 Mk I* and I** revolvers in 1941, but the production run was very limited (estimated at around 350 or so revolvers in total), and the revolvers produced were criticised for being non-interchangeable, even with other HAC produced revolvers.

It is thought that most of the HAC revolvers have either been crushed in the various Australian Gun Amnesties and "Buy-Backs", or else are still stored in people's attics and basements in Australia.

[Claven2]

That's not entirely true. The projectiles in .38S&W are lighter, at about 147gr, while the .38/200 has - you guessed it - 200 grain projectiles. The brass is identical. S&W even stamped .38S&W CTG on all their victory models produced to fire the .38/200. And the brass is very reloadable. I've gotten over 30 reloads in webleys and S&W's using .38 S&W brass No problem at all!

[tiriaq]

.38 Special cases shortened to .38 S&W will be rather puffed out when fired in a Webley/Enfield/Victory Model- the latter round having a larger diameter. While pressures are low enough that a blown casehead isn't too likely, shortening Special brass isn't a good idea. A lot of Smith Victory Models had their chambers reamed to accept the longer Special ammunition. Cases fired in one of these rechambered revolvers expand noticably in the area of the original .38 S&W chamber. I may be mistaken, but I believe that the 200 grain bullets were lead, while the jacketed bullets weighed 178 grains.

[Claven2]

Tiriaq,

You are right about jacketed MkII bullets.

.38S&W commercia brass though is not shortened .38 SPL brass, it's proper S&W brass that is dimensionally identical to .38/200 brass.

[woodchopper]

I bought the last of the 38S&W wholesale had (2 boxes) and have been reloading that brass for my enfield and S&W M&P 38's

Biggerst problem is trying ot find .361 projectiles.

I've been loading 147grn JHP .356

tried some 180grn XTP's but not enough powder and just got a few squibs, not interested in getting near the max loads listed for my enfield.


Oh and I have another enfield on the way

[tiriaq]

Just out of curiosity I measured some specimen cartridges. Measurements are just in front of the rim, and just behind the crimp. R/l\L 41 IIZ: .381/.379; Winchester Super X .38 S&W: .380/.380; RP .38 Spl: .374/.374.
In years past, I shot 148gr hollow base wadcutters out of a Colt Police Positive .38 S&W. Shot quite well.

[Claven2]

nice thing too, is surplus WW2 era ammo is generally boxer primed in this caliber, and quite reloadable

I generally shoot hard cast lead bullets with alox lube. Shoots quite well.