Irish (?) contract No4 rifles

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I don’t think there is any secret whatsoever, that Britain, among other nations, supplied vast Arms shipments to the factions fighting the Soviet backed Afghan Army and Russian supporting Army years earlier.

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Not much a secret Peter, its just a fact no one wants to accept ..... and regarding the other nations I would of said "along with some other Big Nations"

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

Frederick (known as Fritz on Gunboards)

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Thanks Frederick/Fritz. It's great to have data/evidence based on detailed research. Thanks for taking the time to dig into the historical record -- it really helps unscramble fact from speculation. Looking forward to your next post.

Reading between the lines, the Brits, who, at the time, were less than trusting of the Irish (and vice versus), figured they could sell the Irish shed load of soon to be obsolete rifles and keep the production lines at Fazakerley running and the union happy. Obviously it required MoD to approve the sale, which made political and economic sense as well. MoD was probably quite aware of the phase-out/phase-in schedule for the new NATO rifles -- something the Irish were not aware of.

Guess we are now the beneficiaries of such tom-foolery. Strange how events of the past take on a life of their own.

Seaspriter.

Methinks that Capt. Laidler’s point is the official history and the actual one may be different. I find it kind of hard to believe given what has been dug up from official sources, but at the same time I find it hard to doubt Captain Laidler, who is one of the best primary sources we have and is as close to the internal working of Commonwealth ordnance would not be in possession of the “real story”.

Quite confusing, but then again I have a hard time understanding how a train could be late when the schedule clearly says it will be in the Bahnhof at 2:15 and yet at 2:17 the train has not arrived.

So Great Britian made rifles 25 years before the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan and placed them in storage waiting to send them to the Mujahadeen. Talk about foresight.

I would think an order for 50000 rifles would show up in the arsenal command histories for that period.


Rick

In the 1970s I was posted to Canadian National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa. One of my friends was also posted there in the small arms shop. He had access to small arms inventories. He had noted that several thousands ( tens of thousands) of LB No4s had been removed from inventory from the Depot in Montreal. Based on some inquiries he stated that these had been taken from stock, by a few selected personnel on a weekend. There was also a request for a million rounds of .303. There were not enough rounds in inventory so, as the tail continues, additional ammunition was purchased from Canadian Tire. The suspicion was that the buyer was the CIA.
I would be interested to know if a number of rifles captured in Afghanistan were LBs.

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Originally Posted by RCEMERalf

In the 1970s I was posted to Canadian National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa. One of my friends was also posted there in the small arms shop. He had access to small arms inventories. He had noted that several thousands ( tens of thousands) of LB No4s had been removed from inventory from the Depot in Montreal. Based on some inquiries he stated that these had been taken from stock, by a few selected personnel on a weekend. There was also a request for a million rounds of .303. There were not enough rounds in inventory so, as the tail continues, additional ammunition was purchased from Canadian Tire. The suspicion was that the buyer was the CIA.
I would be interested to know if a number of rifles captured in Afghanistan were LBs.

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I have some buddies who went to Afghanistan (one was a weapons tech) and they said they saw some Long Branch Lee Enfields there (there one of there jobs was to cut up the rifles they captured). So at least some of the rifles over there were LBs not sure how many as I wasn't there personally but I know at least some are.

There was military contract "white box" Mk.7z ammo produced in the late 70's and early 80's by Winchester that was rumored to be for the CIA and export to Afghanistan. People forget that the cold war was still in full swing in those days. The NATO countries were arming anyone deemed fit to help stop the communist threat world wide. Much of that work was done clandestinely.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

There was military contract "white box" Mk.7z ammo produced in the late 70's and early 80's by Winchester that was rumored to be for the CIA and export to Afghanistan. People forget that the cold war was still in full swing in those days. The NATO countries were arming anyone deemed fit to help stop the communist threat world wide. Much of that work was done clandestinely.

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I thought the Egyptians made ammo for the CIA. The problem I see it is the principal of plauseable deniability. Using a rifle and caliber from Western power pretty much tells you who is arming them. I thought the CIA was running AK's into Afghanistan.

I'm sure the CIA and other intelligence organizations purchased ammo from many different sources and ran all sorts of weapons into Afghanistan. Logistics was hugely problematic too from what I've read about the Russian invasion days. Lees played a big part because the indigenous folks had been using them for years. Plus they were cheap and available.

Great thread all around! Been waiting for this one for a while. :thup: