Irish (?) contract No4 rifles

[Frederick303]

Capt Laidler,

I am very glad to have you finally put down on paper your reasons for doubting the general quantity of rifles acquired by the Irish. I have wondered for some years what that information was that you had regarding this.

That notwithstanding, I have done some research, as have others more favorably situated and this research has involved direct communications with the defense archives at Dublin. Here is a summary of what information I have on the topic:

1) The need for 50,000 rifles.

In 1945 the Irish army had the following stock of long arms, distributed between the regular forces and the local defense volunteers:

Rifle Total serviceable
SMLE MK I*** rifles ~9,000 Under 4,500
No 1 MKIII/III* ~32,500 31,000 plus
P14 T 112 112
US Model 1917 19,987 ~19,765

Total: ~61,599 ~54,877

So at the end of the emergency, they had an assorted pile of rifles, or two different calibers, one of which was by no means plentiful (.300). Of those rifles none had been obtained after 1926 (parts were), and many, more than half of the SMLE MK I*** rifles were worn out or lacked forends.

By 1953 the only additions had been some quantity of No1 MKIII .22 cal conversions, partly purchased directly from UK stocks, the remainder converted by parker-hale in 1951/1952 from worn out Irish No1 MKIII rifles. In short they needed new guns and considering the tensions that existed right after the Korean war it was by no means out of the question that if they could get a good price they would not replace the entire rifle stock.

2) Obsolete pattern:

While very apparent now that the Bolt action was obsolete, in 1953 it was not so apparent. The EM2 which had been adopted by the UK in 1949 was still not in production and while 1954 would see the FAL be adopted, in 1953 the only common self-loading rifle used was the M1. As a neutral state Ireland could not get them, only NATO countries were supplied by the US at that time, perhaps in part due to the fact that the UK did not want Ireland out of their orbit, and had communicated that to the US of A. The No 4 was still the rifle of issue to the UK army and would be until the fall of 1956. Indeed it was not until late in 1961 that the Irish suddenly made purchases of the FAL after some peacekeeper problems in the Congo.

3) Records on Irish Purchase

Ireland did purchase a total of 50,000 No 4 MK II rifles. This is verified by the letter sent to Graham Priest, of which he was nice enough to share a copy of the letter with me, dated 11 April 2000. In the letter a Colonel of the Irish army verifies that a total quantity of 50,000were purchased. He lists the following serial number ranges. The rifles were distributed in these ranges, by no means were they complete through all the ranges :

PF301548 to PF354999
PF360000 to PF 405415
UF55A 152 to UF55 A21266


In separate correspondence regarding the Irish adoption of the Carl Gustav M45 submachine gun, a mention is made that at the same time of those trials (1953) a quantity of 500 No4 MK II rifles were obtained directly from the British MOD for Irish trials. These rifles would have to lie outside of the regular number sequence, as they can have been purchased no later than the October of 1953, and as such predate the known start of the Irish contract (November of 1953 production start, first regular shipments to Ireland no earlier than late April/May 1954, with the issue to the army occurring in October of 1954).

4) Disposal of The Irish Contract:

Between 1991 and 1997 Ireland sold a total of No 4 MK II rifles. Here are the sales records as published by the Irish ministry of defense, in response to an inquiry made to them regarding sales between 1988 and 2000:

1991 5,889 including .22 cal rifles (either 989 or 889 .22 cal rifles)
1993 20,000
1994 8,000
1996/1997 16,000

The following quantities of arms were still in storage as late 2003, In Irish stocks. At that time one of the No4 MK I T rifles had been de-watted for display in a museum. Once gain these records obtained from the Irish ministry of defense.

No 4 MK 2 740
No 4 MK 2 with PH5C sights 100
No 4 MK I (T) 50

Now from the above you will note a missing figure of either 140 or 240 rifles. This is explained by a former soldier of the Irish reserves who explained at the time of the final disposal in 1997 all of the drill rifles were destroyed. He even sent me a picture of an armory with one in a rack from 1993, with a single white band on the buttstock.

In collecting various accounts from soldiers in the FSC, individuals involved in the packing for delivery of the rifles were found, who verified the inventory and packing of the 1993 and 1997 lot. In the case of the 1997 lot, all were like new and the soldier posting on this indicated they unpacked the rifles from boxes, with 5 rifles each, each packed along with an unmarked No 9 Mk I bayonet still in grease. Each serial number had to be verified and so they made a slit in the packing paper over the action body to verify each and every serial number. Which is commonly seen on a lot of the rifles….

So from various sources the full quantity of 50,000 rifles and their disposal are explained.

5) Explanation of the serial numbers and why they are seen in other places other than Ireland:

That will have to wait until tomorrow night as it would take a lot of time to explain what info has come to light, and this post is long enough.

Frederick (known as Fritz on Gunboards)

---------- Post added at 12:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 AM ----------

Poo, the formating is messed up.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Seaspriter]

Frederick (known as Fritz on Gunboards)

Thanks Frederick/Fritz. It's great to have data/evidence based on detailed research. Thanks for taking the time to dig into the historical record -- it really helps unscramble fact from speculation. Looking forward to your next post.

Reading between the lines, the Brits, who, at the time, were less than trusting of the Irish (and vice versus), figured they could sell the Irish shed load of soon to be obsolete rifles and keep the production lines at Fazakerley running and the union happy. Obviously it required MoD to approve the sale, which made political and economic sense as well. MoD was probably quite aware of the phase-out/phase-in schedule for the new NATO rifles -- something the Irish were not aware of.

Guess we are now the beneficiaries of such tom-foolery. Strange how events of the past take on a life of their own.

[mike16]

Reading between the lines, the Brits, who, at the time, were less than trusting of the Irish (and vice versus), figured they could sell the Irish shed load of soon to be obsolete rifles and keep the production lines at Fazakerley running and the union happy. Obviously it required MoD to approve the sale, which made political and economic sense as well. MoD was probably quite aware of the phase-out/phase-in schedule for the new NATO rifles -- something the Irish were not aware of.

the problem with reading between the lines is that it allows a very broad spectrum of interpretation that allows us to argue almost any point of view. The reality is that the british may not have trusted the Irish but there is no evidence that selling them "obsolete" rifles supports this. The Irish trusted the brtiish only as much as they needed to.and there is no indication on the diplomatic front to indicate ta lack of trust. After all the british sold them the rifles didnt they. Probably both the british and the irish considered the possibility that the rifles could be used against the british and it was laughed off as almost inconcievable. I think that in the flawed context that most people think of. it was more likely that british soldiers were likely to sell thier rifles to the IRA than the republic in the south issueing them to the IRA. What many fail to realise is that the IRA caused as many problems in the republic as they caused in the north. and it was a relatively quiet time during the 50's. very few, some, but few of these Irish contract rifles every went north in aid of the IRA.

You may remember that the british were also selling the same rifle converted to 308. The Irish could have bought those rifles but chose the 303 most likely because they had stocks of other rifles and bulk ammo in 303. Considering who thier most likely enemies ( not just single unwed mothers) could be, there was no need to upgrade and modernise. It made economic and logistical sense. and the same descision was made in the US before WWII and by the british them selves just befor WWI. so with the same considerations involved why wouldn't the Irish make the same choice.

Did they keep the factory open to make this run of rifles? I dont know why I think this but It was my impression that the rifles were alresdy made and on the shelf the british were looking for customers. These rifles were made solely to keep people employed. there was never any ready made market for them and with so any weapons left over from WWII , America giving away modern rifles and new ones comming off the line. The irish had a vertually unlimited choice and yet they went with the 4/2's in 303. brand new rifles, well designed, in a caliber supported by thier logistics. at dirt cheap prices. the choice was clear, simple and correct.

the fact that the irish were not aware of the nato switch over to 308 is pretty much a myth. The 308 had been around commercially way before nato considered it. Several rounds were submitted to nato for consideration, not just the 308, the british and several other european countries submitted rounds for consideration. America;s submission was the 308. but at the time of the irish deal there had been no firm descision on a choice. Its safe to say that with the overwelming influence of the US the 308 was the clear choice. in retrospect but at the time there was no certainty. every member of nato knew this because it was such a big deal. many cried foul but caved in due to America's willingness to assist them in the conversion. The Irish themselves went over to both FAL's and 308 only a few years later and joined the UN, With America;s economic support, it made as much sense as the irish contract choice did a few years earlier. It impossible to view any of these descisions by them selves or in a vaaccuum.

It would be all but impossible to conceal this pending nato 308 choce from the irish. No. the nato round choice was actualy irrelevent to the Irish. The british were selling them a small quantity of existing rifles in a calible compatible with existing munition stocks.They sold them at almost give away prices and in an "obsolete " caliber. Considering Irelands foreign policy, it was unlikely they would be going to war with anybody anytime soon. Considering all the elements. the irish got the best deal. If those rifles were comming off the line in real time it would have made no difference weather they were 308 or 303. except to the irish with thier existing stocks of 303, No , the claim that the irish did not know...its a myth. They got a really good deal all around considering what was out there on the market.

is it so difficult to separate the "irish element" from the equasion and come to the conclusion that it was a wise and insitefull choice. Why is it that in every respect the Irish are characterised as idiots and all thier choices were mistakes. Military history suggests otherwise and yet we persist in the stereotype. Lets start with the supposition that every choice the irish made was in thier own best interest and not mistakes..... it make the choice to buy 4/2's in 303 all the wiser. Why are the Irish so foolish and gullible to by 50K rifles in 303 when the Indians continued to make the mkIII's in both 308 and 303 and FAL's.and the Pakastani's....OMG! they took existing tooling, dies and jigs and ramped up production of the same rifle when everybody was going to 308 and FAL's. and both the Indians and the Pakastani's continued production how long? how many addition DECADES? And yet its the Irish with thier paltry 50K rifle purchase are the idiots, the fools. the gullible.

[mike16]

So at the end of the emergency

what emergency?

I think only twice did the british sell enfields to the Irish.

First time was during thier civil war. Churchill was so enthusiastic about that that he wanted to sell them 18 pounders as well. he shared your view of the irish pete.

the other time was this 50 k rifle deal. wasn't Churchill Prime minister when that deal went through?
.