Just came across this.
I'd never heard of a SLAP Rd before this.
Helps play backed at 1 1/4 speed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1449kJKxlMQ
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Just came across this.
I'd never heard of a SLAP Rd before this.
Helps play backed at 1 1/4 speed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1449kJKxlMQ
Yes, this was terrible, he come a hair of losing his life
JD,
Boy you got that right, the Good Lord, his Father and using his thumb saved him. Plus I didn't know about the 911 App on the phones.
I did order a couple Thumbs Up shirts !
But after watching it, I've wasted most of my day watching more .50 Cal blow ups. Just watched one about the Vulcan's.
Now I gotta go out and pick up all the tools I dragged out for the chores I was suppose to do today.
:thup:
I have a different take. M903 SLAP was developed to increase the armor defeating capability of the M2 machinegun. While it was adopted in the mid-80's, it was not commonly fired in training, and perhaps it was different in the Marine Corps. No one I have talked to in the Army remembers having any issued during the Gulf War.
Policy changes concerning the disposal of surplus ammunition have gone back and forth, currently only ammunition useful to other government agencies escapes DEMIL.
Even the rules on demilitarization have changed. Folks may remember companies which pulled down ammo and reloaded it. Then DoD required the brass to be crushed.
This makes the pedigree of the ammunition he was shooting very suspect.
Was it ammo left over after training and some GI stuck a few rounds in his pocket for souvenirs?
Was it ammunition scheduled for destruction and purloined from or by a contractor? If that is the case, it is possible the ammo being destroyed was a "bad lot" meaning the Army had condemned it as unsafe.
Was it ammo reloaded using pull down components and who knows what data?
The few rounds he shot were inconsistent. One exhibited an excessive amount of flash before the accident round. My view is IF it was over pressure ammunition it's unlikely a Barrett or a Browning would have fared any better than the Serbu did.
As a tanker I fired plenty of sabot ammo through tank guns. Most of those guns, such as the US M68 105mm gun lack muzzle brakes. During WW2 the British 17 pounder and the US 90mm had accuracy problems caused by muzzle brakes interfering with the sabots coming off cleanly. (Seems like he was having similar troubles with flyers?)
It might be interesting to take a good look at the muzzle brake on the Serbu. Did the "petals" of the sabot beginning to touch the brake rather than coming off cleanly upon exit like they would on a "bare" muzzle? Is it possible that a sabot or pieces of it got caught in the slots of the muzzle brake and in effect become a bore obstruction?
Finally, SLAP was approved for use the M2 machine gun but NOT the M85, with its tulip shaped prong style flash suppressor.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...85_12_Ju-1.jpghttps://ernstarmory.com/images/DSC_0828.jpg
Correct, it is my understanding that shooting slap rounds with muzzle brakes are very dangerous unless the muzzle brake is specifically designed for slap rounds
He later stated it was OLD ammo. I don't blame the firearm, his ammo should never have been chambered. Who knows how that ammo was cooked before he got hold of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by old tanker
I am not a fan of shooting old ammo from dubious origins. Collecting and keeping is mostly better than shooting it.
Also my opinion. I don't shoot anything I don't know the origin of.
This case was really a borderline one, but why risk one's health or damage a gun for shooting unknown stuff?
I'm happy for him, but I'm even more happy because that might teach lots of people being more cautios when handling guns.
Every accident like this is a new card in the hands of the antis.
Absolutely...I don't shoot surplus or 2nd hand ammo, and I don't shoot another person's reloads either unless I was in the room with him when they were made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
And another thing...half his face would be gone and likely killed instantly if wasn't wearing eye protection.
Yep. That thing with good eye protection was enlightening and humbling at the same time.
I alway wear glasses, but mostly just my correction glasses. Now I'm always thinking about that video and am starting to wonder if I should always wear the safety ones.
They are so uncomfortable if you wear glasses underneath and also wear ear protection other than plugs.
You can get safety glasses with your prescription lenses in made. I got my current ones issued by a place I worked for years ago. My ear protection also - two perks in an otherwise not so nice company.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
I was starting to think about that myself.
Now that I just changed prescription lenses might be the right moment. I should be ok for a while...
Where in good old RSA are you, if I may ask?
I use ess suppressor glasses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
https://www.esseyepro.com/en_us/ball...-hi-def-copper
They are affordable, combat tested (they had or do have a contract with US military), and the model above has thin arms to comfortably fit under comm gear...or hearing protection.
I wore them with contacts before I had Lasik a few years ago. But now, I sometimes slip reading glasses with thin arms under them too...works wonders with tiny peeps on 1903's and Krags, or tiny thin front posts on my trapdoor Springfield.
You may. Vaal Triangle, Gauteng. A couple of km outside the town with the steel mill that was the reason for me getting prescription safety glasses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
50 caliber SLAP ammunition was developed by the Marine Corps during the mid/late 1980s. The stuff was only finally type classified in 1993. How old could it be?Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
M903 Caliber .50 Saboted Light Armor Penetrator (SLAP)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._SLAPgif-1.jpg
Used by M2HB machine gun. The SLAP is used in combat against current and future light armored targets and Armored Attack Helicopters (AAHs). The M903 offers the capability to defeat these targets at ranges two to three times that of currently available ammunition.
Armor Penetration.
500 meters: 1.34 in (34 mm)
1,200 meters: 0.91 in (23 mm)
Projectile diameter: 0.30 inches (7.7 mm)
The cartridge consists of a heavy metal (tungsten) penetrator that is sabot-launched at a much higher velocity than standard rounds. The sabot, which is designed to break up at the muzzle to release the penetrator, must also survive the gun environment until launch. It is injection molded of special high strength plastic and is reinforced with an aluminum insert in the base section. The cartridge is identified by an amber sabot (Ultem 1000).
Type Classification: STD. Type Classification Date: 31-MAR-1993
Unit cost: $8.87 (Fiscal Year 2005)
A fixed price contract for initial production of 3.5 million rounds of 4/1 linked M903/M962 for the U.S. Marine Corps use was awarded 1QFY94. Contractor for this activity is Olin Corporation. Cartridges are being loaded, assembled and packed by the Winchester Division, East Alton, IL. M962 tracer projectiles are charged at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP). Production of 0.6 million rounds for Army use began 2QFY96.
How many tons of WW2 cal 50 have we slung down range in training without trouble?. We did have the advantage of breaking the seals on the crates. We did not shoot loose rounds from shady sources.
I can tell you lots. We would procure from US supply at Ft Lewis or more to the point, Yakima Firing Range and I know the ammo was WW2 AP, APIT and so on. I was the only guy looking at headstamps. It would have been stored correctly though. That was back early and mid '80's.Quote:
Originally Posted by old tanker
I gathered from the video and comments that these rounds are not available as you would find other surplus ammo...still in its packaging or sealed crates.Quote:
Originally Posted by old tanker
Looked to me like there is no comparison...he bought loose rounds at ~$100 each from lord knows where to make a one-of-a-kind video for his channel. Well, it was one-of-a-kind for sure!
Just south of Joburg.
I hope I’ll be able to come down and see customers after summer.
I really miss South Africa. Always felt at home there.
We had some in iraq 2005. We also were shooting 50cal ammo dated from the 50s. And some of the snipers had 40mm buckshot rounds.Quote:
No one I have talked to in the Army remembers having any issued during the Gulf War.
You and the guys issuing would have been all through SB742-1 to make sure the lots drawn were approved for use. Most civilians have no clue how stringently ammo samples are tested during storage to ensure it will perform as intended. That's one of the reason they won't take back any ammo the lot identity has been lost. Once you break the seal it's easier to shoot it up than try to turn it back in.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I remember this. Not just crushed but Shredded. I wrote my Congressman at the time who was Chair of the House Intelligence Committee - Mike Rodgers R 8th District Michigan.Quote:
Originally Posted by old tanker
I knew him as a member of the Michigan State Senate and as a Client before he ran for Congress (Painted his New Home). I went in to great detail about US tax payers having to pay for the shredding of the Brass, which was still offered for sale to the Commercial reloading companies, but useless in shredded condition. It was then being sold to China. On and on I went. I mailed a copy and Emailed a copy.
Posted on the Forums about it. Much to my surprise Mike sent me a return Email 2 days later letting me know that policy had been changed and the Brass and any Surplus bullets that could be sold would be sold. 6 months later we were back at his house working on it as it was being upgraded. I really thought he'd run for President, but pulled out of Politics.
He was 'Almost' the replacement after James Comey was fired.
Back on Topic,
When the shooter took what he called was going to be his last shot I seen much more Flash and that round went flying bottom right.
Then...... He decided since he had that 1 round left he was going to make it his 'Last Shot'.
Too bad he didn't save that last one and Displayed it.
Didn't he question if the load may have been a Reload? And that he didn't know for sure.
I was also under the impression that it was a really old round from his comments about it and the price per round before he started shooting.
I'd have to watch again, But didn't he say when he called the gun maker they said it would take something like 80,000 Lbs pressure to strip the threads for the end cap ?
Was up really early this am because the Coyotes across the river were partying. By mid day the sky was full of Buzzards.
I Watched a few early morning videos with others giving their opinions why this gun failed. A few pretty much said what Tanker said about this type round not being antique. Some leaned towards it being a reloaded overcharge. One talked about how long that round may have set in that metal can in the hot sun.
On a lighter note I also watched a video of US trainees on the firing range. 1 guy repeatedly pulling the trigger with no boom. His DI standing behind him asked (Loudly) if he was out of ammunition. Trainee replied "There's no way Sir". DI told him "Try inserting the magazine correctly" as it was in upside down. Trainee pulled the Mag and got it in the lower... pulled the trigger but no Boom. DI looked in to the camera with a WTF kinda look and told the Trainee to " Now turn the mag around" . Trainee turned the mag around and inserted then pulled the trigger again... No Boom. DI then mentioned "Try the pulling the handle". Trainee charged it and finally got off his first shot but shot at the wrong Target.
No Blood, but I'd also call that a Bad Day. :surrender:
Thx All for for your input. I'll have to watch it again.
Interesting case. The "estimate" of 85K PSI to blow the "breech-cap" off the threads is presumably based on the manufacturer's estimate of what pressure would cause the threads to shear off as they did. Actual pressures generated here are apparently unknown.
I have to wonder if there was a more or less complete lack of case to chamber wall adhesion here. The best cause of that is oil or wax on the case or the chamber wall.
With a mere three or four turns of plain old 60° thread to keep that cap on, I for one would never put my face behind it. The threads have clearly sheared near their roots, which raises questions about the steel used and the heat treating of it.
At least an acme type thread might have been wiser, and more turns, but of course too many turns and guys get tired of it... An interrupted thread would have resolved that problem.
Were the rounds perhaps tumbled to clean them up externally? Did someone assemble surplus components with the wrong propellant?
He's a gutsy fellow anyway, and now a wiser one too.
Plastic sabot. Perhaps it degraded with age or storage conditions and separated early from the second last round causing a barrel obstruction for the last round.
Ovidio, you are always welcome for a range day should the opportunity to visit present itself.
Thamks MSW2. I’ll reach out to you and Daan when the time comes.
I decided to see the world and meet people more than I did before, when I just traveled the world, which is very different...
Looking forward to your visit Ovidio.
I saw an article the other day where the bad guys are doctoring ammo and putting it on the market as surplus but its way out of spec say filling a 7.62 x 39 round with AP-5 of pistol powder so a massive over pressure is ensured.
Would not surprise me that this is occurring.
Me either. Easy to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
That would be plain criminal...
My son complained about them hurting when he used them with this Howard Leight so I when and got him the 3M SecureFit 400.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cpEx_JPG-1.jpg
Working at the range 9 hours a day got painful wearing safety glasses and Howard Leight earmuffs. It was a GOD send when my wife gave me these Caldwell E-Max Shadows I absolutely love them. Can wear whatever shooting glasses I want and no cheek weld issues.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...78da3663-1.jpg
Easy to do, and it was a government program. Here's how it was run under MACV-SOGQuote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNyZ_7J-Kp8
Love the M3 at 3:20 with a can. Those are great, I had one half a lifetime ago and wish I had it now...
Really Appreciate the Education on SLAP rds.
Like I originally posted, I had never heard of them before.
Special THX to Old Tanker :thup:
OMG, that was terrible
All the slap rounds I own are dated 09. I have no idea the source of them, or why they were surplused. The slap T rounds I have are also dated the same. Made by Winchester. I wonder what head stamp those rounds had that Kentucky ballistics were using?
I'll bet if we looked at his threads on this or even if you message him you could find out.Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
I bet if you sent him a message on his youtube channel he would answer, simply because you have some of the slap rounds and I'm sure he would want to want you to have all the information on them he has.Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
Even though I would never dream of actually firing them, I would still love to know the background on them just to have for my records. Mine are still linked in a beltQuote:
Originally Posted by usabaker
I'd hang some kind of warning sign on the belt, just to make sure that in any case, no-one else will have the bad idea of trying to fire them. You never know in life...Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
I have some older Carcano ammo from wartime, and I have put them in a container with a warning on it.
Sgould anything happen to me, I don't want my son or someone else to have someday the bad idea of trying to fire the old warhorse with that ammo.
As an Ammo Tech, my suspicion is with the sabot... I would almost put money on sabot breakup as being the cause of this.
The two earlier shots show signs of loss of obturation, with gas leaking past the projectile. These rounds could be more than twenty years old, which is way beyond the working life of many plastics. Lead bullets in copper jackets are well known and very stable objects.. I suggest that we should not be using rifle ammunition with plastic sabots more that five or ten years old...!
Good to see you finally here on deck...Quote:
Originally Posted by bombdoc
I've long been retired, so no longer have access, but I'd like to see what the latest copy TB 9-1300-385 MUNITIONS RESTRICTED OR SUSPENDED has to say about cartridge M903 SLAP and M962 SLAP-T.
The stuff I see on Gunbroker looks suspect
Does anyone know what plastic the sabot is made from?
Only the older slap rounds actually have slap on the head stamp. To my understanding the later ones, do not have this marking because they were easily identifiable without it. The picture of the one from GunBroker looks okay to me, just the Sabbot is cloudier where it's older and is probably been banged around a lot. These are what all mine look like